#27 - Robbie Swale of Robbie Swale Coachng
[#27] - How to talk about your work with Robbie Swale
Robbie Swale is a leadership coach who has built a successful practice of empowering clients to unlock their potential to thrive in their career, work, and life paths. Robbie’s clients include entrepreneurs, investors, theatre directors, and even other coaches.
In this episode, Robbie shares his coaching journey, discusses getting comfortable with talking about money, the importance of honesty, and how we can improve our practices from learning through conversations with others. Key points throughout the episode include:
Being authentic and not compromising values.
Obtaining the first 10 customers.
Robbie’s professional false starts and his coaching pathway.
Learning and experiencing by doing.
The benefits of feeling and embracing resistance.
An insight into Robbie’s enrolment process.
Getting comfortable with money and learning to sell your services from the get-go.
The practice of looking at the bigger picture and end goal.
The key approach of honesty and simplicity.
The value of referrals, the gift of a session, and planting seeds.
Tips on how to develop your coaching skills.
The Coach’s Journey and creating for your community.
Advice for finding your first 10 coaching customers.
Robbie also hosts The Coach's Journey program and podcast which is dedicated to supporting coaches to take their business to a new level, creating work that supports them to live an extraordinary life, whatever that means for them.
Connect with Robbie Swale:
http://www.robbieswalecoaching.com/
http://www.thecoachsjourney.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/robbieswale
http://twitter.com/RobbieSwale
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
http://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
http://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Resources:
War of Art by Steven Pressfield
http://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Winning-Creative-Battle-audio-cd/dp/1501260626
Coach Training Organisation recommended by Robbie
The First 10 Podcast is produced in partnership with podlad.com
Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, coaching, coach, clients, conversations, business, coaching session, bit, point, referrals, money, robbie, podcast, charging, nominal fee, create, run, important, session, enrollment process
SPEAKERS
Conor McCarthy, Robbie Swale
Robbie Swale 00:01
You want that honesty and integrity to be present, because you won't be planting seeds so that every relationship and interaction you have could lead to clients at some point and business at some point in some way, even if it doesn't now.
Conor McCarthy 00:14
Welcome back to the first 10 podcast. I'm your host Conor McCarthy. And in each episode, I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them and what effect they had on their business so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. When I'm not recording podcasts, I help Business Builders find their first 10 customers and grow their businesses. I do that with one to one coaching and a series of online workshops. please do check out my website Conor mccarthy.me. For more details and to sign up to my newsletter. I hope you enjoyed this show. On today's podcast, I go deep with my guest, Robbie swale on what it takes to build a successful coaching practice. Robbie has been coaching full time for the last six years. He got started after a career change led him to realize that the parts of his jobs that he enjoyed the most and excelled at was when he was inadvertently coaching people. So he took the baton on here we are today. In this episode, we chat about the early stage of the journey Robbie has taken to his well established practice. In particular, we talk about how to find your first client by borrowing successful pitches from others. Creating a body of work that helps you earn trust with a wider audience, experimenting and playing with coaching formats in a low risk way. And feeling the resistance and taking that as a signpost that, that's the thing you need to do next. We also talk an awful lot about pricing, it's a really fascinating part of the discussion of what it means to get comfortable talking about money.
Robbie Swale 01:38
So much of what we cover in this conversation falls under the banner of trust, both building it and earning it. Robbie has a great way of communicating to things that have helped him the most in getting to this point of keeping it simple. He's a really smart observer of himself and his work. And his use that to create a business that provides value both to his clients, and other coaches through his community for coaches called the coach's journey. please do check out the show notes for links to all of Robbie's work, as well as a really useful resource that Robbie mentioned in the podcast that he used to get his first three customers. It's actually really simple and really handy. Please do enjoy this podcast with Robbie Swale.
Conor McCarthy 02:16
So Robbie Swale, first of all, thank you very, very much for taking the time to be with us here today.
Robbie Swale 02:25
Conor, it is an absolute pleasure.
Conor McCarthy 02:27
You and I've been friends through the akimbo universe for a couple of years now. And I said before we started recording I have I have, I feel like I've watched or heard or I don't know so much about your coach's journey. So do you wanna, just tell the audience what you do. And then maybe we'll jump back a time and go right back to the start of where it all began?
Robbie Swale 02:46
Yeah, yeah, I do, I do share a lot about what happens in my work. And that has become a part of how I, how I operate, really. So what I do now, you know, I call myself a leadership coach at the top level, but really, that's just my way of opening up conversations with the right people in the right way or hoping that I do that. There are kind of three parts of my work or three things that I'm interested in. One of them is, in some ways, creativity. So it's like why do people who want to do things sometimes not do them? And how can I help them do that, and that might be write a book, start a business, just, you know, change their career, start a relationship, you know, any of these things that the for some reason, we often really want but don't take the action to do. And I partly got interested in that, because that was me. And I found some ways to work through that. And then I got, I get really excited when cool, like ordinary people make cool things happen in their lives. So that's like one part. Another part is the kind of pure leadership part. So that's when someone is a successful leader in their organization or as an entrepreneur, like but they they're reaching some kind of point where the way they operates so far, isn't going to take them to the next level of what they want, whether that's kind of bigger success, or just a different quality to it. I get interested in that. And at the moment, what I'm most interested there is how do leaders. So what I'm wondering if I'm going to call this I'll say to you, now your audience is like, leading with honor. And what I mean by that is how do like a lot of leaders seem to fight and they come to a point where they feel like to get to the next level of success, whatever that is for them, they have to compromise their values, they have to be like everyone else is being or, you know, play the game. And what I get interested in is how can we get to the next level without having to compromise our values, it's kind of staying true to true to who we are. And then the last part, which is the part where sharing my process and comes up most is I am really passionate about the world of coaching and what the craft of coaching has to offer the world. I think coaching for those who don't know is a form of one on one support, really, it's about creating the conditions for people to do their absolute best thinking, be at their most creative. And I feel like that's mostly, that's what leaders of the future and people of the future really need in the complex of the increasingly complex world. And pandemics only made that more difficult.
Conor McCarthy 05:20
Tapping into our own inner wisdom is really what we've got. And coaching really helps people do that. And so that's why there's a part of my business. In some ways, the most public facing part or, you know, at the moment, that one that's been most public facing in the last couple of years, called the coach's journey, which is a podcast, but it's also a community for coaches, and a whole set of resources about the craft of coaching. And my aim there is to do my best to help make sure there are the coaches in the world, that the people of the world, the leaders of the world, perhaps in particular need. And that's some kind of my attempt to some kind of, in some way, encapsulate what I do No, that is brilliant. I wish I could encapsulate the things that I do so well, you, you do have a great sense of how everything fits together. I'm guessing you didn't have that at the very start that that's something you've built over time.
Robbie Swale 06:09
Yeah. And also, like, I should say that the way thinking about that start to now, you know, the way I talk about my work is really different. I think that, you know, has been really different at different times. I think that's probably the first public facing time that I've described it in that way, just to say that.
Conor McCarthy 06:24
Like, we sometimes, you know, we sometimes hear what people say and think, oh, wow, like, if they've been talking about that we're like, that's an amazing way to talk about their work. But in some ways, I'm testing that right now. And it is all true. Yeah, but I'm in the process. Now I'm about and I've been coaching professionally for coming on six years. And, you know, I'm really aware that over the last year or so, how I think about my work for the next phase is kind of coalescing, or I hope it is or I needed to or wanted to, and that is where I've, I've got to with that, and it does feel like it fits neatly with the things that I do. And it's nice to hear back that. It sounds like that as well. Yeah, it sounds very values driven, it sounds, it doesn't sound like you're you concocted this and you're just using it, it sounds like something you've put a lot of thought into. And I'd like as your clients must feel like there's a sense of, Oh, this guy really aligns with, with what he's preaching, you know, this must instill confidence in your clients to hear this. That would certainly be my, my hope. Yeah, I think that probably, you know, maybe from from Seth Godin and his work, you know, but but from early on in the journey, I kind of realized that, in the long term, the only, the only thing that was really going to work that wasn't going to be exhausting was to kind of be myself. And to do that as skillfully as I could, and show up like that. And particularly in my line of work, but I think it's probably true for many,
Robbie Swale 07:57
kind of many of the businesses that people run, you know, especially online, especially, you know, today that doing anything else with would get exhausting. In the end, though, people would see the flaws in it, like the the, if you concoct something, then in the end, you're gonna, you're gonna make a mistake in how you've concocted that if you're playing a part. And if you're, but if you're being yourself, you're never going to make a mistake, it's always going to be coherent, even if it's coherent in how messy it is, which which it definitely has been at times. And what I think is interesting about the way I just described my work, in some ways is that, it is, although a lot of thought has gone into it, it hasn't come from that thought, a lot of the times come from, what am I doing? And you know, therefore, if if my interest in creativity, and my interest in leadership and my interest in coaching, are to make sense. Other than them just being what I'm interested in? How do they make sense? And that's in a way, that's where that description came from.
Conor McCarthy 08:56
I love that. Thanks for going into it a bit more. I do find it fascinating. Just there. There are three great pillars of of work that you do. So to go back, we as I said, like this is something you've developed over time. But back in the early days, six years ago, five or six years ago, how was it when you started out to get your first 10 customers as a coach?
Robbie Swale 09:18
Yeah, maybe. I mean, I wonder if this is when I kind of learned that thing or was learning it? as well. You know, it's kind of always interesting to reflect back. So yeah, i'd essentially been a probably a couple of years into a career change by this point. So I do kind of my background was really mixed in the first decade or so of my career, but had I was coming out of leadership roles in arts and culture in the UK. That's That's what I'd done. I'd run some, some small arts organizations, which I think you know, which did feed into what I what I'd done, but I realized that wasn't for me and I was looking for something which which, where I really enjoyed the actual work, and I kind of realized that for me, that was something about people. And I heard, you know, partly I realized that because although I was a bit of a mediocre line manager at the time, when I had conversations with my staff that I managed, we loved that I loved it, they loved it. And although I didn't do it often enough, that's one of the things that made me mediocre. We didn't follow up on those conversations enough. When I look back at that, I could see that that was some of the some of the times that it really fired me up. And at some point, I had the insight Well, what if I could do that, more of the time. And then I dotted around, and I did, you know, had a few false starts, you know, for example, I had a false start in counseling and a false start with coaching, actually, then I had a full start with counseling and psychotherapy. And then I came back to coaching and I found that training course and some people that that were really my people. And, unfortunately, that that was a startup, and it's now resting, so I can't send people directly to that it was called the coaching school in London. But what happened for me was I then found that training and I wasn't sure that I was going to become speech marks a coach that that was gonna be the work that I did, but I knew that that those coaching, those coaching skills that they were teaching me will be useful wherever I ended up in the future, because I knew that I was going to want to be working with people in some way. So even if I went back into leading organizations, I knew those skills will be useful. And what was great about them was that they, they in the first first weekend of that training, I think it was two or three days, their aim was set us up. So that we could go out and start coaching people is the best way to learn is by doing. And I still think that's the case. And whenever I'm speaking to coaches now, it's like, well, one of the things you need to do is make sure you're coaching. And they, you know, basically they sent us off then after that weekend to do it. And it was like, you know, I was like I don't really know how to do this, but Phil who found that the coaching school Phil Bolton, I think he sent as a like, a Word document, with suggestions on how to do this, including with basically I can't remember if it was an email template that he gave us or a Facebook message. But the first customers I came, that came into my business came from that essentially, I took his language from his thing, I put a post on Facebook. And, you know, essentially the language, there was something like, I'm doing this new thing, I'm doing some training. So it's like take the pressure off myself a bit, I'm doing some training. In this thing called coaching, I'm looking for some people to become practice clients to work with me for a nominal fee. And that putting the nominal fee was important for me, because I knew I'd never sold my time before. And I kind of knew from reading a little bit and hearing from other people who've done similar things that might be like real growth area for me, which absolutely has been, you know, the sales process the it's going to cost x pounds to work with me for y sessions or months or whatever. So I started with I you know, put in that it was going to be a nominal fee from the start. I didn't say what it was. I wasn't sec. And, and then I gave what I thought was some really vague, I had no idea who I wanted to work with. So I had, so it was what I thought was really vague descriptions in after that. And Conor, I can probably dig out a picture of this or like I could really dig out and share it because it's interesting. And what happened was, I got some you know, and I really remember the anxiety of hovering over the the Post button on Facebook at this moment. And I'd been reading the War of Art. I think, you know, I had this weird thing where my brother gave me for Christmas, I think that year. And if people don't know, this is a book by Steven pressfield. amazing book.
Conor McCarthy 13:48
And my brother gave it to me for Christmas that year. And I found that I already had it, but I've never read it. So it's like, I then had two copies. I was like, okay, the University sent me a message. I better read this thing now.
Robbie Swale 13:59
And one of the things he says is where you feel the most resistance, that's like the most important things for you to do. And I was sat there feeling like otter can have anxiety and fear about coming out as a coach, basically. And luckily, I'd been reading the War of Art, and I was like, well, Steven pressfield says, you got to do the things you really scared of, I better do it. And I press post and I got a beautiful reaction, you know, and I got the rush of like adrenaline from having done it. And then I got a really nice reaction. And actually the first, I think, three clients, customers that I had in my business came from that post and they were people that I they were people that I knew, like, one was someone I'd been in a play with. When I was like community and amateur play when I lived in a different city. One was somebody who was the kind of friend old friend but who I wasn't seeing regularly and one was someone who I'd worked with on a project a few years earlier. And that's where they came from and then there was some process that happened after that before they became clients. But, you know, the positioning started from that. It started from vague. And it was something about like, I think there are three bullet points, maybe it's pretty similar actually, in some ways, there's kind of three bullet points, but they were really vague bullet points, it was like, people, you might want to make a change in their career, because I've been thinking about that a lot. And so I thought, maybe that's what I want to do something else and people or, and then a casual, or people who are just going through a change and think this might be useful. And yeah, that's where the first three came from. And that was the first vague bit of positioning that I do. That's brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. Because I had a similar thing. I don't know if I, if I did the widespread Facebook posts, but putting out those first tentative messages, those nerve wracking messages. Is is part of the coaching coaches journey, I guess, is there anything about that first contact that you think, really worked? Like, what was it? And to your point, like it was, it was vague. And there were there were some issues, let's say, put something in there made those three people say, I'm gonna give this a go. What do you think it was? Yeah. I mean, my feeling actually is probably that it wasn't in the message. And this is actually might be a really useful thing for people to hear.
Conor McCarthy 16:26
There's an extent to which I don't think the message mattered. I think what mattered was that it was me who was posting it. And the reason I say that, is that one of those people that comment was, and I remember it, because it was, like, kind of important to me in the journey was like, wow, I'd love to do this with you. And I heard I don't know, I don't think she put you in caps or anything. But I, I heard the the capsule the italics on the word you. So my suspicion is, you know, it was like that the important things were, there was something out there. ie they couldn't have said yes, if I hadn't posted it. And they, I suspect that none of those three would have thought to look for a coach. spontaneously, it might be a bit different now, but I think for those three, it probably wouldn't have been, it's just like the situations that that we're in right now. Yes, a series of conversations with someone who's doing some training to help people through periods of transition or, or, or leadership challenges or whatever those like, I want to have some conversations with someone like that. And I can imagine that Robbie would be a good person to do that with because I already know him. Like, this wasn't the first contact with these people. The contact had happened. Like I said, I knew them all reasonably well. Yeah, it will be it wasn't in their life day to day. Okay, yeah, that's a really, that's so important. Because all of the nervous energy goes into the message. And of course, the best place to start when you're starting out is like, Who do I know just who's in my circle? And through Facebook, or LinkedIn, or whatever it is? We're just considering Who? Who do I know that this would be just that extra nudge that they would need? That maybe, you know, you don't know that they're going through something? And they need some help. But how do you think the framing of you know I'm, I'm learning this, this practice? Do you think that helped as well? Or was it? Was it just the good timing thing?
Robbie Swale 18:15
Yeah, I think it probably did. I think, you know, there's like, gentleness to that, which is different to, here's my business, I'm looking for clients come in, please pay me right, which is a really different feeling. And I also don't know, like, I imagine, I'm not sure about those three, but I imagine that the fact that it was that it was a nominal fee, made it easy for them, actually. And, you know, I don't better to have had that, like my feeling about fees early on, is better to have had the clients and had them pay you something than to have not had the clients mostly, like the experience of working with those three, and we could talk a bit about that, you know, framed how I worked with people from then on, you know, I really have iterated both the enrollment process and the structure of my engagements as I've gone on through the work that I've done with different people. And I took so much I was paid in so much more than money, so they paid me to have them pay me 180 pounds for six sessions. So like 30 pounds a session, which is like 35 euros or $40, or something like that. So it's not, it's not nothing, but not far off.
Conor McCarthy 19:32
Learning that that piece and and having the experience of them paying me, you know, I think one of them negotiated even on that. So it's like, got me down to 25 pounds a session. And that, but that was an important part of it. Why did you opt to charge something and not nothing? I asked because, of course, the obvious thing is like free coaching sessions.
Robbie Swale 19:53
Yeah. And I kind of again, essentially it was because I didn't, I knew that I wanted to, like learning about charging was really important. And having the conversations about money was really important, and need to get used to that I wanted to do it as fast as possible, because I knew that if I was going to do this, I wanted to learn that as fast as possible. And so I told you, I can talk about what I then did the next phase is a bit interesting. So I had these conversations with these people. And the enrollment process I used was, again, what I'd learned from Phil Bolton at the coaching School, which was, you know, essentially was to have a conversation about, about the work about what we might focus on over the coaching that we did. And then, you know, to use that as the sale, so really, it was like, create the set of objectives that we will work on over, let's say, three months of coaching together. And it actually went really well. Like it was miraculous, I couldn't believe it. Like I didn't really know what to say, Well, the first time the first one, the first person said yes, you know, it's like that's one thing to prepare yourself for. It's like, what will you say if someone says yes? And what will you say if someone says no, and just have that in mind, because I didn't really know. And I had kind of practice what I was going to say a little bit before those conversations. But those first three, it may have been even that the first five all said yes. Which was then a really strange thing. And part of it was probably that I was charging, not very much money. And then I had a series of no's. And that made me really think about how I, how I charged and what I did in my enrollment process. Probably before I get to that point is worth saying the other thing about charging from the start is you get used to working with people where they have skin in the game. So it's like, at the time I was working full time alongside this. I think it was a really smart I didn't know this at the time, but it's really smart thing to charge some money, because it just made it that bit more likely, this is what charging money to people does, it made it that bit more likely that they show up, it made it that bit more likely that they take it seriously and made it that bit less likely that they disappear off the face of the earth. Although one of them only took up for five or six sessions that he'd bought. You know, that's that's interesting, too. But getting used, if you're going to charge someone money for something. For me, it was really important to get used to charging someone for money and experiencing that.
Conor McCarthy 22:23
Would you say now you're comfortable with talking about money with clients? or?
Robbie Swale 22:27
Yeah, I am. And and that has been a process and my rates rising has been an incremental process and playing with that I'm still playing with that, like I said, I'm thinking a little bit about how my work looks from a public facing point of view at the moment. For instance, if people go to my personal website, Robbie Swale coaching.com, they won't find those three things that I described at the start of the call described in that way. Yeah, I am thinking about all that. And as part of that, I am thinking again, about how I speak to potential clients and how I charge for my work and where that sweet spot is, and all that kind of thing. But yeah, it's absolutely been a journey where I am now pretty, you know, pretty comfortable in basically all situations talking about money and coaching.
Conor McCarthy 23:15
Yeah, I think being able to talk confidently and easily about money is not only good for yourself. And I think there's a lot of work to get to that point, as you've alluded to. But it also helps because I often find when I'm talking to my clients about how they sell their services, if being able to share some ways to think about pricing, or ways to help their clients understand value, which of course is different from price. It feels like one of those life skills, getting comfortable with money, I think whenever I be students in workshops, I teach this stuff, everyone is so nervous to talk about money. And usually the default is I'll just charge cheap. I'll go down down scale.
Robbie Swale 24:00
Yeah, and there are lots of reasons why that might be sensible. But I you know, there are also lots of why it might not be and one of them is, you know, like, what I remember one of the key moments in pricing for me was kind of flipping it, you know, in fact, it was always a part of that. It's like, how, how do I want my work to look like how many people do I want to work with? or How many times do I want to have to get someone to get to the point with someone where they say yes, in a year. And you know, actually, one of the reasons I started there were a few reasons why the length of my engagements got longer. Partly it was the complexity of the challenges of the people I was working with or loving working with. Partly, it was noticing that sometimes the short engagements didn't have the sustained change for people like that. I wasn't with like, we weren't doing the work long enough for them to embed the change they had. But part of it was well, you know, if I'm selling coaching to people, six sessions at a time, I can't remember I don't know what the sums would be, but I'm gonna have to sell it 30 times a year. Sp to have the client, the solid practice. Whereas if I'm selling coaching to people 12 months at a time, I'm going to have to sell it five times a year. And that's a really different thing. And it makes the whole process feel really different. Now, there are upsides and downsides to that. But that was a frame that really helped me. And it helped me also realize when I, when I didn't need to raise my fees anymore. Because you know, at first, you kind of know, I knew, if I was charging 30 pounds per session, I was gonna have to raise my fees, they were gonna have to keep going up to make it a sustainable business. But but it also helped, you know, I got to a point where I was like, Oh, actually, I don't need to think about raising my fees anymore. Because if I sell five 12 months, engagements a year, at these fees, plus I'm doing because I do have other work that I do for other companies and training facilitation work. If that all that's, that's perfect. For me, that's all the money I need. You know, so actually, I can now chill out about it, which is also a nice place to be.
Conor McCarthy 25:55
That's so true, that's a really good point, go go right to the end, and do some back back of the napkin. That is an important step.
Robbie Swale 26:03
And that is really important step by step, it was so useful for me. And I think that people, one of the things is people get kind of frightened of money, so much so that they avoid doing the thinking. Whereas actually will usually when you do I what my experience personally was, when I did the thinking about money, the back of the envelope stuff, things get less stressful. And this is true about money. In my personal life, it's true about my coaching practice, it's like, if I work out, if I'm stressed about money, I wanted this great insight that what drained me of energy was not being stressed about money, it was being stressed about money and doing nothing about it. And so actually, you know, then that was the insight, which helped me get my personal finances much more in order, and my and my business ones. But you know, for example, I think I really recommend, which again, came out of my, as part of my coach training, I got some coaching from a professional coach, and we ran an exercise together, essentially mapping out the next you could use for any number of years. But you know, you think about an end game, a reasonable end game in the next five years, say, but I think mine was two years. It's like, How much money do I want to be making? But I'm including money, you know, and it's how much money do I want to be making from coaching in two years time, and then work back on that, you know, draw it out on a big bit of paper? So if, okay, if this is where I am in, in two years, and I'm working with this number of clients, and this many people and this much money is coming in? Where do I need to be in one year? And where do I need to be in six months? And where do I need to be in in like 15 or 18 months. And actually, when I drew that out, I really remember this. It's like, Oh, that's cool. Again, I can chill out about where I am right now. Because I am where I need to be. And as long as in, you know, 12 months from from now from so six months in, I can chill out because I only need to get to hear by 12 months from now and actually having the figures there. I think mine was like, I'd love to be making 20,000 pounds from coaching in two years time. And so if I work back from that, okay, well that I need to be there and there and there and there and there and all that again, yeah. helped me think about not only how I was going to price my coaching over the next two years, but also mostly it helped me relax. And remember that this is not this is a long game, I don't have to get everything done in the next 10 minutes.
Conor McCarthy 28:09
So interesting, what it's it's not the first place that a lot of people would start with that with the numbers, even though it's in the back of everyone's head, it's a kind of constant worry, if for the most part, it's like, Am I charging enough for how am I going to make this work, etc. But well, you've described there, you know, of figuring out the end goal and working backwards, and then realizing, oh, to make this amount of money doing this type of coaching At this rate, then I need X amount of people. And then that influences your marketing and sales. Because if you only need five people a year, you'd be five sales that totally changes how you go, go and sell yourself and go and market yourself in the world.
Robbie Swale 28:48
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and the price point you choose different points again, it's like you know, when you've got the number there, it's great because you can say okay, well 20,000 pounds is is for people paying me 5000 pounds, or 20 people paying me 1000 pounds. And if I was charging 1000 pounds, what would I offer and if I was charging 5000 pounds, what my offer and I don't think I did that thinking at that point. But that's certainly the kind of thinking that I've done as time has gone on. I hope you're enjoying this episode, and that there's some actionable and insightful advice that you can take out to your business, helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast and want more information, including a bunch of free resources on how to find your first 10 customers and grow your business, check out first 10 podcast.com that's 10 one zero, or find me on Twitter at the first 10 pod.
Conor McCarthy 29:42
Now, you probably hear what I'm about to say on every podcast you listen to, and it makes a really big difference to the show. If you find this podcast in any way useful or enjoyable. I'd be so grateful if you left me a review on iTunes. It really does make a big difference in terms of other people discovering the podcast also If you leave a review, you will get to see your name on the review in lights. What I'll do is I'll design your words and post them online. Tagging you on your project along with it. I know, it's a pretty sweet deal. Okay, let's get on with the show. So after the first three, what were the next few? Like? Can you remember?
Robbie Swale 30:20
Yeah, so the next two were referrals. So I don't know if they came from that message. Now, one was from someone on my coach training. So it was like her, then boyfriend, I think, one was one was a work colleague of my wife's, and, you know, starting to flex, I did something I did a slightly different engagement with her, although I think the price point was the same because I was starting to get this sense. You know, I wanted to sell her the coaching. And I realized that the thing I was thinking I was going to sell her wasn't it. And that was a kind of clunky conversation that I'm much better at having now. But when you realize that she does want coaching, I do want to do that coaching with her. But this six session engagement, it's also the first three people is really not what she needs. It was I remember it being a clunky conversation. But I think we just did two sessions together. And that was interesting, right? Because, again, a bit like so both the positioning and the ways of working, I kind of encourage people to experiment early on, because I had no idea who I wanted to work with really, or how I wanted to work and how could I hadn't done any work with anyone. And the way that I learned that over time. And the way that I got to speaking about my work a bit like I did at the start this call or like I might do right now is by by playing with things as we went on. So I had those two and then I had is definitely worth saying I then had this series of no's, including like, one I just remember being like, I had one when someone said yes. So I had a series of no's already. Then I finally had someone say yes. And then no. And that was like their house that has been probably the moment that one of the moments I remember most clearly from the journey is sitting on the sofa basically going hot and cold, like absolutely heartbroken about it, it's just like, well, this is never gonna work. You know, it's those kind of that kind of catastrophizing that that most of us are prone to do sometimes. And I could talk about that a bit. But a kind of key moment in this process, which is definitely worth talking about for me was I went on a kind of an online coaching summit with an organization called coaches rising. And as part of that there was a woman called Carolyn Freya Jones, who, who ran a session, I can't remember the title of the session. But I, I asked her a question on that call, which, which was like, this is what happened. I've just, I just got in the office building that I worked in, I've got them to send out to everyone. A version of my Facebook post, so it was cool, right? It was like, I could only do this once, right? But but it was a great opportunity. And doing this training and looking for practice clients nominal fee, same sort of message and I got some interest. I think I got three or four, maybe even five, like prospects from that. None of whom became clients. And I was basically in this space with this woman. And I asked her that question. I was like this has happened, what can you tell me about how I can make sure that doesn't happen again? And she just she refused the premise of my question, which was great, and gave me a much better answer, which is she essentially suggested a way, because what was happening for me is I've only got this one shot with these people and this mailing list like I don't want to mess mess it up. Yeah. And she saw that basically, and gave me another thing with which is instead of doing that, like, what if there isn't just one shot? And what if you just reach out to people and do something completely different. And she basically dictated an email to me, which I then went back to the recording of took down. And that became the process through which the next couple of clients came. And that that that process was something like that email was something like, you know, I got this advice from another coach. anyone listening can can use this right? It's from Carolyn, to me to you. And you can see that I gave the advice on this podcast that you listen to just sit and think about who are the people that I've been most inspired to do some coaching with. And I thought of you and then you tell them why you thought of them and why they they inspire you and why you were inspired to do that. And so what I'd like to do, this is still the email, what I like to do is offer you a coaching session as a gift from me. There's no pressure for it to become a fuse to become a client. That's not what this is about. I just felt inspired to reach out to you. This is something I can offer right now and please know, it's totally okay, If you say no. Then the beautiful thing about that is you can do that as many times as you want forever. Now, I haven't done it that much recently, but I do do it occasionally when I get really caught by someone. When the first person said yes, through that process, that felt entirely different to me, because suddenly that's then something that is repeatable, that it suddenly felt then like, creating my business is within my control. Whereas before, and I think this is what Carolyn Frazier spotted in that question. It's like, I've got this one shot at sending out these emails to people. If I don't do it, my business is stuffed. So it's really then again, it's a bit like, when you've got the long game in mind, you can, the pressure is off. So a bit like the pressure is off for me in terms of raising my prices. I'm interested in the pressure being off in my sales conversations. Yeah. So it's like, it's the pressure is really on, because I've only got these four people. And if I, if they don't say yes, to me, I don't know where my next client is coming from. It's really hard to sell something to somebody or is for me. Whereas if I know that I can send emails to people that the pressure is totally off on this conversation. But I know and this is what happened with one of those first people I sent that email to, she actually said, I don't, I'm not sure I want to have a coaching conversation yet. But can we have a coffee and then we had the coffee? And then I wish she was like, actually, yeah, I think that coaching session would be great. And then we did that. And then miraculously, now this is really tough, because you've got to go into that exchange, really got to go in not trying to create a client from trying. Yeah, if you say one thing, like, oh, there's no pressure to become a client. But actually, what you want is them to become a client, it won't work. If you're really there. And with integrity, saying, you don't, we don't have to become a client here, I just want to coach you, then that's beautiful. And sometimes it might lead to some work. But if it doesn't lead to work, it leads to loads of really useful stuff. And the early stage, I knew all this was worth it. So it leads to experience. Not only that, but particularly to experience coaching people that inspire you. And that's such a useful piece of experience. Or it leads to people I also did another one who didn't become a client with someone who I thought would inspire me, and it was one of the most boring coaching sessions I'd ever done. And that's really useful, because then I know that that's not the kind of person that I want to do more coaching with.
Conor McCarthy 37:16
But it also, so patient experience, it also pays in potential for referrals. And we're early on building up that base of people who might refer people to you, that's an incredibly valuable thing to do. So another invitation that Karen Frey Jones in that call gave to somebody else, I think was, it was gifting coaching, or any service that you have, you can do this with people who knows and trust you already and might make referrals who have got great networks, because the best way for them to make a referral is to have actually experienced what you do, they can make a really different referral at that point, to just kind of the sense of what you do. And so a smart technique is you can just ask the people who you know, have got great networks for referrals, people who really trust you really believe in you. But a really smart idea. And again, an entirely repeatable thing you can do forever, is sit down, think about the five people who know you and trust you, like at least to some extent, and have amazing networks of people you'd like to be connected with. And give them an experience of your work with the specific and explicit aim. And tell them this up front, that they might then refer other people to you. You want to make that real for people, because it's what I think is weird is that I sometimes get asked, Is it okay if I refer someone to you? And I'm like, Well, yes, that's really the only way my business ever works. So please do but people somehow don't know that. And, and so explicitly telling the people that you want to people to refer the people you want to refer people to you, yeah. That you want referrals is one level and another level is gifting those those sessions to people. Wow. Everything you said in that last little bit is full of really useful information. And there's one or two things that stood out to me where you know, funnily enough, honesty is the best policy by by going to people and say, you know, I'm building a coaching practice, no string session, you're someone who inspires me, I would love my goal is to coach people like you. But right now, it's still building towards that. There's something really beautiful about that simplicity. And as I said, the honesty because they're going into it going, there's going to be it's going to make an ask, and there's going to be money. Again, money conversation is going to be weird. You're just kind of going No, this is this is this is exactly what's going to happen. So almost Don't be afraid. I really only appreciate that. That approach.
Robbie Swale 39:48
Yeah, and I think it's really important. And, you know, actually because especially in the work that I do, you know that the kind of coaching that I do, it works better when people trust you.
Conor McCarthy 40:02
If people don't trust you, and it's because of the way the world is, at the moment, like, well, the way that especially the way the world has been, I think, hopefully people like us are beginning to change it. You know, sales as we expect to be hoodwinked, we expect someone at the end of the call to try and sell something often in a kind of clumsy, slightly oppressive way. Yeah, and so to, to hold that that isn't going to happen. And I would, you know, in those sessions, and start those calls, really remind people of why you're here, explain what's going on. Explain, remind them that like, Don't worry, I'm not going to, I sometimes say, Don't worry, I'm not going to try and like hoodwink you with the sale. At the end, I'd like to say that up front, so that you know that so that you can relax.
Robbie Swale 40:44
That sense of honesty is really important, it helps people relax. And I think it does make it more likely that people then want want the thing that you're selling them, because they know it's their choice. They know they're not like I don't know, you're like but if I get a call from like a cold call person, and they're put, they're doing the hard sell the sales techniques, stuff, I'm at the end, I get more likely at that point, to say I need time to think because I really don't want to be rushed into buying something I don't want to buy. Whereas if they're not doing that at all, I'm free to be curious. Which is, which is really important. And the other thing about honesty, I think the thing to say is like, and this is in both those both those invitation frames, the ones people who inspire you and the ones for referrals from people that you that, you know, it's like plant seeds for the long term. And honesty is a way to plant seeds for the long term. Because you want I realized that I wanted to leave every, so what I didn't like about the kind of sales conversation, that wasn't a gift of a coaching session. And what I should say about my sales process is it became that a gift of a coaching session was the start of my sales process, always. Coaching someone planted a seed for a referral or for future work, because they really know what working with me is like a sales conversation without a coaching session didn't do that in the same way. So like, in that early phase, it's really helpful to think, really long term, but if not really long term, then then 2, 3, 4 years out, because then each interaction looks different. And what I realized is, not only was it good for me to coach as many people as possible at the start, because it just helps that referral ecosystem start. But the honesty throughout that is really important. Because every time and there have been some there are some relationships that are that have broken, because for me because of badly handled conversations that could have led on to referrals, and now won't because I wasn't skillful, because I was learning. And but but overall, you want that honesty and integrity to be present. Because you won't be planting seeds so that every relationship and interaction you have could lead to clients at some point and business at some point in some way, even if it doesn't now. And that's kind of the structure of which that that principle has really helped me to think about how to structure my enrollment process how to structure my engagements, because if what I want is to always be planting seeds for future work, that's really different to what I want is to get some work right now.
Conor McCarthy 43:13
So well said I love that Yeah, having having a system and not putting an inordinate amount of pressure on the next call the next email the next interaction, just kind of say, No, I'm in this for the long haul. So what can I do now to get the analogy of planting seeds is brilliant. And that's, I think you're you're very good at that is to get really technical on it. Do you have a way of kind of managing your relationships? Do you kind of track? Or do you keep everyone in some kind of a database? Or how do you you've got a lot of people in your universe?
Robbie Swale 43:46
Yeah, I mean, nothing kind of as systematic as, as I might have, I guess I'm aware in this moment is us that I'm like, Oh, yeah, I kind of could. Now, part of the reason for that is that I haven't prioritized it. So what I do, the things that I do, I do have a log of everyone that I've ever coached. And that's why I was able to look back, it's fun actually knowing I was coming on the show, to go back and look at those first 10 people and be like, Who were those people and, you know, so there are some things that I do that. So I quite often six months after I've worked with someone, gift them a coaching session. I actually learned it from a friend of mine who got it who came up with it because she was like, frustrated that she didn't know what was happening to her clients. And she was worried that they had that things weren't going well for them. And so she was just like, well, I can just include this in my offer. I can just I can only always because it's really nice for me is helpful. It's definitely helpful for them. Imagine as a, as a client, you get that as part of your, your package like that's really nice. Now I don't necessarily include it in my package, but I almost always reach out to six months and 12 months after working with somebody to say, I often do this for clients, I thought of you, and would you like to do this? So that maintains those relationships. I do have a kind of system that when I finished working with someone, I explicitly asked for referrals at that point. I have in relationship to those invitations that I learned from Carolyn Freya Jones, I have got good at and braver through Steven pressfield, as well, you know, that kind of thinking at reconnecting with people. You know, when I think of someone that I once coached, whether they were a client or not someone who's in that ecosystem, if I think of them, I can just write to them and tell them, I was thinking of them. And usually, there's a reason for that. It's, you know, it's, I'm trying to think of an example, but it's like, you know, I was reading this book just now. And it reminded me of that conversation we had last year. Here's the book, if you're interested in a link, you know, occasionally I'll send someone a book, you know, if I, if I'm just if it's a client or a former client, and I'm just reading something, I'm like, you know what, you know, Alexa would love this book. And if I can, or sometimes ask for their address, I'll be like, here's, here's the thing. And trust that that generosity is, is valuable. And again, you get into people's consciousness again. And it's actually remarkable sometimes, how people will be like, do you know, I was just thinking about you the other day. And that may just be like, confirmation bias that you I only remember the times when that happens, but sometimes it happens. So, rather than a system, although I do have some systemized bits, like the asking, always asking for referrals, usually offering a follow up session. Really, I've got a mindset of always be connecting with people. And that doesn't just mean that doesn't mean like adding them on LinkedIn is like something more than that. Can I offer something to someone? Can I connect two people to each other? That kind of thing? And that's really my, my customer relationship management system? As far as I've got it. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Always, always be going into it thinking holding the relationship to a high standard, I think is that's that's a smart way to go about things. When, when you when you think about the craft of coaching, outside of actually having coaching conversations, which is where you constantly learn, are there any other ways that you develop that craft? Yeah, I mean, there are, there are multiple ways of doing that. There are many coach training organizations out there. My favorite, if people are looking for it is coaches rising, who I who I mentioned before, their programs tend to be affordable compared to some of the things that are out there, and they have a podcast, you can listen to, they, for me, they're at the cutting edge of coaching, which not not every coaching organization is and not everyone should be right. But you know, we need people to be working on the fundamentals. But I'm interested in the cutting edge of things. And so their their stuff lands really well, for me, receiving coaching, from really the quickest, fastest way to learn what you need to know about running a coaching business, from everything from how you might want to run your sales or might not want to run your sales to, to what it's like to be a client so that you can support people in their, in their when you're working with them. And you know that I wrote an article once trying to pull that all together, like why is like, I know that that is the most useful thing that I've done to develop my craft and my business. And I tried, you know, again, I can send you a link for I tried to pull together all the reasons for that. It's a bit weird, because it's a bit uncomfortable to write that article because it sounds like I might be saying, Carmen, let me coach you I just desperately want you as a client, which isn't the case. But it's just a really important thing. I'd had a conversation with some new coaches. And I'd realized they were asking all these questions which would have been answered if any of them had ever hired their own coach, because they would have just learned like what it's like to be on the other side of those enrollment conversations. And I've learned exactly what I love to do and what I will never do from conversations I've had about people who with people who might become my coach. I'm also a big fan of group coaching as a way to learn about coaching because when you're in a group, especially a group of coaches, it's why that's that's the place I mostly send coaches who want to work with me is to my community because you get to learn, you get to be coached, you get to watch other people being coached as well. And there's just so much learning in in there too. What was your experience of of setting up a group coaching program like getting those first 10 coaches, coaches to be into that? So I've run a few different group coaching programs with varying levels of success. And the first time I did it, it was hard work. But I essentially did it the same way that I create clients the other times, so I invited loads of coaches into free group coaching sessions. I sent her like, I can remember I remember one week I sent out 40 invitations. It's like it's a, it's a good growth practice kind of hard work getting, you know, from that, I don't know, 25 no's in the space of, you know, or no answers in the space of a week that's like, Oh, it's a bit much to go through. But But and, and then essentially went through my normal went through the salesperson I had at the time. So give gift them an experience of group coaching with me, Why else would they buy group coaching with me except through knowing that, then have a longer conversation with them one on one, and then some of them become members. And that worked. Okay. The first year, I had two members in that group coaching program, this is when I ran a kind of six month group coaching program. Second time, I had four. And the third time I had three and at that point, partly because as I was just saying before, we jumped on. And so I'm not running that program this year. And partly that was because I realized that because we were having a baby. And I realized that I didn't want to have to have the energy to send lots and lots of invitations to manage that kind of administrative process of getting people in a row. So I flipped the way that I work that and launched what is called the coach's journey community. So there are a couple of other group programs that I've played in different ways with, which aren't for coaches, with different levels of success that I could talk about. But the coaches journey community is a really different way of working. So it's essentially a subscription model, I run through Patreon, which means that people can join and leave whenever they want. There's it and when I'm thinking of new ways to work, I'm always I realized this when I was creating this community, I'm always trying to solve multiple problems at once. What I want really is, is a new way of working, which solves a few problems in my business. So I had a problem, I'm going to be tired because we're having a new baby. Therefore, I can't run the group coaching program, what's the thing I could run, which still allows me to do this work with coaches that I that I love doing? But which won't take all that energy? Also, I'm I'm wondering about is, are there some people for whom a six month intensive group coaching program is not the right thing? So can I create something where people can just drop in and drop out whatever is right for them? And also, in the back of my mind, I know that some coaches are struggling with their money conversations with their business, can I create something that at one level, at least it's really affordable, and so that the coaches journey community is my attempt to do that. And by this point, actually, the enrollment was relatively straightforward, because I had, it's a really different structure. But I have, I have a podcast for coaches. My community of coaches in my network has grown over the years of me being interested in the craft and talking about it sometimes. And so actually, that was then it became a relative. And I had a set of former clients who could join this, this community. And so that became a relatively painless process, except I procrastinated on it for about six months before, before it launched. Yeah, of course, of course, you are human after all. Okay, that's really Yeah, that's great. I love how you kind of, again, you you planted so many seeds over the years that when it came to launch this new pandemic style community, you were able to quickly pull together people who knew you and trusted you and and build from there, I think that's, that's a really smart use of your time. And they get a lot of value from the group coaching. Yeah, and it's part of the other, just we haven't really talks about it. But the other side of my business model, which isn't really what I've been, it's like I haven't set out to do this particularly, but I have over the last five or six years created a body of work. And a body of work is another way to create business. And that's more what happened with the Coaches journey community, as a body of work that I've made out there. For coaches, I have other bodies of work as well. Although in some ways, because that's the best define, I think it's the most successful and that's what I'm gonna be working on probably in the next phase of my business with that new definition, right is I need to curate and create, and make really explicit the bodies of work about leadership and creativity.
Conor McCarthy 54:13
I had that body of work, so people already knew me. So then when the offer came, and it's like, I could join this thing for 10 pounds a month. They know me, even if they haven't worked with me already. They know me through the podcast, or through the articles or through the videos or whatever it is. And they can just say yes to that with trust. Whereas in the enrollment process, if you think about what I was talking about before, where you givft the coaching, you have maybe have a coffee like that client, right, that early client have a gift to offer a coaching conversation. She says no, let's have a coffee. We have the coffee, you know, we already knew each other but we're connecting deeper in different way. We have the coaching session. By the end of that she really trusts me and paying a few 100 pounds for some coaching is it's just like a really sensible thing for her to do.
Robbie Swale 54:57
In a way the body of work shortcuts some of that because as does a referral, because it allows these people to say, Yes, I totally trust that this will be and some of them come in at the 10 pound membership, and some of them come straight in at the 100 pound membership. And what's what I think's interesting is some people I didn't know have come in at that, at that level. So you know, it's not like I thought, what would happen is that people I didn't know would come in at the bottom, and they creep you their way. But actually, for some people, they know me enough from, from the things that I've created in the world that they just know I'm in for this. That body of work, is not to be it's not necessary, especially in coaching, like, you can absolutely create a coaching business without a website without any body of work. And then people who tell you otherwise lying. There's an amazing coaches out there who, well, their website is like, you know, email me here. Yeah. And it's like, I've had a few people on my podcast, who it's that and that's great, you could absolutely do that. And, you know, everyone should always remember that. And it can be a cool thing to do to create a body of work, because that takes some of the pressure off later on, and enables you to just, you know, which is what happens in lots of other industries, right? I'm sure you've had lots of other guests like that, you know, where you build the you build the community, or the mailing list, or whatever it is, and then you create something for them. And then some people will buy that, because they already know.
Conor McCarthy 56:23
I love that. I just realized the time and I've taken so much of your time, maybe as a last question, it's something I ask all my guests what, what is the main piece of advice you would give to someone who's just starting out to find their first 10 customers?
Robbie Swale 56:39
Hmm, in my industry, or in any industry? in your industry?
Conor McCarthy 56:43
Yeah.
Robbie Swale 56:49
I mean, there's so many Conor that it could be. But I think it's, it's probably just coach, right? It's like, coach, a lot of people. It's not quite that. So it's like, it's maybe to coach. And then it's, it's like, know how you're going to talk about your work. So one of the things I learned from a coach that I thought I was talking to you about him becoming my coach. And I don't know if he didn't think that or it's like a blind date, where he like, turn, you turn up and they see you and they leave. But we had this long coffee for like 90 minutes. And he had no point I thought I've been really explicit contacting him. No point in that, that he talked to me, or referenced that we might work together. And I just decided I would never I made sure I would never do that again to anyone, because it was just a weird thing. And it's bad for business. Yeah. So it's just like, always, always have the way for people to work with you. So it's like, in fact, even in some of those invitations that I talked about, you could you could be honest, right at the start of the one where you said you it's not about sales, you, if you if you want to you can caveat that at the start by saying that this is not about sales, I'm not trying to create, you know, make you work with me, but I do have a deal with myself, where if I spend time with someone who I know, or I really, really fully 100% believe I can help. I'll tell them that. So you know, that's not why we're here. But I'm, you know, I want to warn you that so it doesn't feel weird when if I do it later on, you can even create the conditions to do that. So it's like, coach, and coach a lot of people because that's how you'll learn everything about how to describe your work about how you want to work, all that kind of thing. Better to have some clients paying you 30 quid to go than to have no clients and make it possible for people to work with you. Give them the chance to say yes. And you know, if we had another hour, we could talk about how that might, you know, how that might, how we might do that. But I think that in some way, having that having that thought in mind is is really important.
Conor McCarthy 58:53
Brilliant. Thank you so much. There's so much of that as a great place to wrap up this episode. Yeah, there are so many of the things we could talk about, because in just six years, I think you've gained so much experience, experienced by doing and again, generous as always, you're sharing all the bits and bobs that are that will really help people write their kind of go into how do I do this? Or what do I? What do I do next? So thank you on behalf of my listeners and me. And yeah, I'll include, if there's anything else you'd like to say now, I'd love to include on your contact details in the show notes. And I highly, highly encourage everyone to go check out your website Robbie Swale Coaching.com so all your details there.
Robbie Swale 59:37
But yeah, is there anything else you'd like to add before we finish up? no issue, my website should be Robbie Swale.com it's actually Robbie Swale coaching.com although maybe I need to buy Robbie's Swale.com because really, it should be that because there's so much more on there than that. Yeah, what I'd say is, if you're a coach listening, do check out the coaches journey.com as well as so much resources, resources there like I and I have absolutely loved by doing like that has absolutely you're absolutely right. And I'm really glad that you can kind of see that. And, you know, really That's why I'd encourage everyone to do. You know, on on as they start their business, right? Because even if the business you're starting isn't the business you're always gonna run. If you're learning while you're doing it, then you know, no, it's gonna it's like planting seeds for you for the future too.
Conor McCarthy 1:00:22
Such wisdom. Thank you Robbie. You're very kind.
Robbie Swale 1:00:26
Thanks Conor.