#26 - Margo Aaron of That Seems Important
[#26] - How to Get People to Care with Margo Aaron.
Copywriting queen Margo Aaron is a wealth of business knowledge. Margo has taught thousands of students how to sell ethically, market honestly, and how to use words to stand out and inspire action. In this jam-packed episode, Margo and Conor discuss the rollercoaster of freelancing, hard learnings, the power of relationships, and the art and science of getting people to care. Key points covered in the episode include;
Margo’s business introduction and her shift into the world of freelancing.
Preparation - setting targets and goals ahead of venturing solo.
The value of building mentors and seeking advice.
An abundance VS scarcity mindset.
The power of relationships.
An insight into how clarity is kindness.
Trial by fire, a discussion on hard learnings.
The key to perfecting your pitches and proposals.
The art of listening and mirroring clients.
Marketing advice for freelancers at the beginning of their journey.
How great opportunities can arise from one-on-one conversations and word of mouth.
Stepping into workshop selling and obtaining customers through mailing lists.
Differentiating readers and buyers.
Margo’s top tip for freelancers looking to obtain their first 10 customers.
Margo Aaron is a proud graduate of Emory University (BA), Columbia University (MA), and altMBA, where she earned the prestigious Walker Award.
Margo is also the co-host of the popular internet marketing and business talk show "Hillary and Margo Yell at Websites" (#HAMYAW). Several of Margo’s articles have gone article, her work has been featured in Thought Catalog, Entrepreneur, Thrive Global, Hubspot, Thinkgrowth, Growth Lab, Copyhackers, and Inc.
Connect with Margo Aaron:
http://www.thatseemsimportant.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/margoaaron/
Subscribe to Margo’s Newsletter
http://www.thatseemsimportant.com/newsletter/
#HAMYAW, Margo’s bi-weekly marketing and business talk show with co-host Hillary Weiss.
http://www.youtube.com/c/HAMYAW/channels
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
http://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
http://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Book recommendations:
‘’Ogilvy on Advertising’’ and ‘’Confessions of an Advertising Man’’.
http://www.amazon.com/David-Ogilvy
‘’My Life in Advertising’’ and ‘’Scientific Advertising’’ by Claude Hopkins.
http://www.amazon.com/Books-Claude-Hopkins
‘’The Art and Science of Getting People to Care: How to Stand Out, Tap Into Emotions, and Meet Customers on Their Level.’’ – Margo Aaron
http://www.scribd.com/audiobook/491281378/
Margo Aaron courses on Skillshare
http://www.skillshare.com/user/margoaaron
Coming soon!
AKIMBO Course: ‘’Write Words That Inspire Action’’ with Margo Aaron
http://www.thatseemsimportant.com/courses/
Produced in partnership with podlad.com
Transcription
Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, marketing, called, sales, understood, relationships, proposals, buying, sell, margot, freelancer, client, business, workshop, job, questions, customers, work, margo, lead
SPEAKERS
Conor McCarthy, Margo Aaron
Margo Aaron 00:02
I don't think it's possible to strategize your way to figuring out how to do this for you like you really just have to be authentic, and you have to make the mistake. And it's trial by fire.
Conor McCarthy 00:13
Hello, and welcome to the first 10 podcast. I'm your host, Conor McCarthy. And in each episode, I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers, who they were had they found them, how they talk to them, and what effect they had on their business, so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. But I'm not recording podcasts, I help Business Builders find their first 10 customers and grow their businesses. I do that through one to one coaching, and a series of online workshops. So please do check out my website Conor mccarthy.me. For more details and to sign up to my newsletter. I hope you enjoy the show. So what is the difference between advertising, marketing and branding? If you think you know, but you aren't quite sure. Never fear because my guest today, Margot ahran is the best person I know of who can help break it down for freelancers, Marco helps online business owners develop and use their voice in order to stand out online. He does that by teaching copywriting ethical marketing and sales. If you check out our website called that seems important is he was named one of the top 100 best websites for writers by the right life. And Margo pops up all over the internet. I'm always pleasantly surprised when I'm sent an article from some top rated marketing websites and I see that Oh, Margaret, this blogger really is the queen of copywriting. And in this episode, she tells us how she found her first 10 customers, both starting out as a freelancer and also as a workshop and course creator. in there, she lays out the ways that she retained her early customers and made it easy for those to refer her on. The topic of selling obviously pops up quite a bit. And Margo was really really generous to share some of her horror stories, and also gives two really simple and powerful insights that have helped her to money sell successes. mogul really has done a stellar job of listening and learning from our customers and from her own mistakes, which has really helped her to refine her pitches and offers. Other things we touch on here are how she pivoted her business during the pandemic as many people have had to and also in being brave in asking trusted friends who maybe don't work in the same industry as you for generous feedback on your work. Lastly, we talked about Margot's upcoming akimbo workshop called Margot Aaron's copy workshop that's happening later this year. And I really can't wait to be a part of it. I think copywriting is one of those endlessly fascinating things, and I really nerd out on it. One of my first projects as a freelancer was actually as a copywriter on Margot's website was and still is a deep well of copy inspiration for me. I've mentioned our website a few times. So please do check it out. The link is in the show notes. And also in the show notes is a useful resource that Margo shared that will help you find your first 10 customers. When you do go to our website, make sure and sign up for her newsletter, which unemployable.com named in their top seven newsletters for freelancers. I hope you enjoyed this show with Margot Aaron. So Margo, Aaron, first of all, thank you very, very much for taking the time to be with us here today.
Margo Aaron 03:12
My pleasure.
Conor McCarthy 03:14
You have a very interesting work background. I mean, you do some pretty interesting stuff now. But you've also been very honest with all the steps to how you got here. And you've had a couple of different types of business under your belt. So do you want to, you know, take us back a little bit and talk about maybe your first business that comes to mind when you think about getting your first 10 customers?
Margo Aaron 03:35
Yes. So I started I call it a marketing consultancy, but when it first started, it was freelancing. And it it was, I called it I was a strategic planner at a marketing agency. And I wanted to quit my business. So I quit my job and start my business like everybody does, because I drank the Kool Aid. And I had a friend who was way more successful than me and like 10 years ahead of me in life. And she sat me down. She was like Margo, do not be an idiot. absolutely do not quit your job. Here's how much runway you need. I need you to have like three or four customers under your belt first. And I was like, what, why? This is what everybody says like, I've got apps. I have my runway, and she was like, No, no, no, no. So here's what we did she and like thank God for this advice because I I gave myself some more tangible goals. So I said I am a freelancer. I've never freelanced. I want to build, I want to build a consultancy, and I sell strategy. So how do you do that? And who do you sell it to? And so, wrangling wrestling with those questions while having a job was the greatest gift of my life, because I put out I'll never forget it. I put out a proposal which by the way, I have never written a proposal before. I didn't know how to price things. I didn't know what the legal anything was like having that experience while having Drop was like the greatest security blanket ever. I remember the fear I felt when I had to write. The price was $1,000. And I felt like it was so much money. I was like, Oh, no one would ever pay me $1,000 granted, like, fast forward, I think I was doing, you know, $96,000 contracts by the end. But in the beginning, like, that just felt like so much money. And it felt like I, you know, my worthiness and self concept was just locked into it. And I was trying so hard. And my promise was ridiculous. I mean, it really made no sense. And it's amazing. They even paid me for it, because I claimed to be able to do some like crazy strategy stuff. But like, there was no way. I just had no idea. And I was I was really determined to over deliver. And so the way I got that client, and what that experience was, like, was really word of mouth. I just started telling people like, I freelance, I do marketing strategy. And people always said, what does that mean? And that question really tripped me up. Because for people who are in the marketing world, we just know, and but to get clients, it's different. It's really, really different, because they need to know what they're paying for. So you need to be more specific than like, consulting jargon. And so I was able to get, I think I had about two or three clients under my belt at that point, and then a few on deck with a lot of support. Like, if people are listening, let me tell you, I told everyone what I was doing. And I try, I was like, collecting mentors who didn't know they were my mentors. I was just like, you are an older person than me sit down and talk to me. Tell me what you know. And I got great advice. Like one of the one of the mentors, I had told me like, you should always have about 10 leads on deck and assume one will go through just assume those ratios. And so when I had that, in my head, I was able to come from an abundance mindset instead of a scarcity one, because before if I had a lead, I would say no to everything else, like, Oh, I have one lead, so I must give them all of my attention. And it never worked. Because there's a million reasons why a lead doesn't follow through which 90% of the time has nothing to do with you. And so learning that lesson and seeing the pattern, understanding lead time, and just getting acquainted with that process, I was kind of how I spent the first year. So going back to your question, though, like that first few months, I had a job. And I gave myself some some runway, I think I wanted to have six months to a year of runway, and the but the real, the real goal was I want in three, I have three months where I can make nothing. And if by three months, I'm not like making profit, then I have to start looking for a job. That was like the agreement I made with myself. Um, we're like 14 years in and I haven't had to get a job. So. So far, so good. But, but but you know, it's a crazy thing, because like, there's some months that are zero, and there's some months that are insane, and that you have to learn to be okay with the roller coaster. But anyway, your questions? Sorry.
Conor McCarthy 08:06
This is great. Maybe I asked no questions. You just you just go for it. Like, it's these stories that I'm looking for. So, so yes, I love that idea of let's not just jump ship and start building a business. Like let's stay in my job, it's just kind of a smart thing to do. But was there was there a day where you would Okay, this is working, now I'm going to hand in my notice.
Margo Aaron 08:28
Yes. Yes, it was around? That's a good question. It was a it was a couple of things that were working in, I would say actually, things were not working in my job. I was traveling a lot. And I realized that I couldn't do a side hustle nights and weekends anymore, because I was traveling too much. And I had a choice to make. And I got I got a competing job offer. And it was really good. And I looked at my husband and I was like we have no children. Actually, we weren't married yet. And I was like, if I'm gonna take a risk, where I'm gonna make like $0 and maybe fail. I gotta do it now. And I knew, I think I had made maybe I definitely made $1,000 from that first client and I had a few more proposals out. But they it hadn't, it was working so much that like leads were coming in. They weren't necessarily closing. So that that was my metric. And I knew something inside of me like the thing that really crushed it was like I have to say no to this job offer or I am never gonna do this. Yeah, there was that feeling that sealed the deal for me.
Conor McCarthy 09:33
Okay, yeah, that's a hell of a leap. But you'd set yourself up so that it was so the leap wasn't you de risked it basically, you took a lot of the risk out of it. And then then you were able to, I suppose more calmly approach the job that work the searching for leads to carrying out the client work, etc.
Margo Aaron 09:51
It still felt terrifying. I mean, like looking back, it feels like oh, that's silly. Why are you so upset about that, but in the moment, you know, you don't have that long view perspective, you feel like any decision you make is finite and forever. And so I was so nervous that I would never be able to get, you know, these kind of opportunities again, and I'll tell you, I think the theme if anyone's listening that I'm going to continue to hone through this whole thing is relationships, relationships, relationships, it was really important to me was, you know, the woman who offered me the job that I said no to, I maintained a relationship with her. I maintain relationship with my old colleagues, I maintained relationships with leads, like, just, I kept up, I treated people like people, and I stayed in their orbit. So it wasn't just a transactional relationship. It was also like, Margo is a smart person, she's doing this thing. And if Margo was ever available, again, we take her, so I didn't really feel like oh, my God, I'm burning all my bridges. I felt like okay, if this if this thing doesn't work for, you know, six months, I'll go back and beg for a job like I wasn't above it.
Conor McCarthy 10:54
Yeah, yeah. I actually wrote down the word relationships, as the first thing I wrote on the piece of paper, after 90 seconds of you talking was like, Oh, yeah, this is, I think there's got to be a lot of relationships. So yeah, that's, that's, it's fascinating. Yeah, this this kind of lovely context that you set yourself up with. And then, but those early, those early pitches, I mean, you're saying they were they're a little bit rough and ready, but you obviously got better at doing those really good. How did you get good at doing this,
Margo Aaron 11:25
I got really good. I cheated. I totally asked my friends. I was like, show me your proposals. And I swiped them. I didn't swipe like word for word language. But I looked at the formatting, I looked at what they included, I remember a woman, this was this was such a gift that this woman gave me and I didn't know it at the time. But it was copywriting. She was like, You need to be more specific about what people get. And I was like, What do you mean, I think it's strategy. And he was like, No, and she hadn't itemized out deliverables. And, and more than just like, you will have, you know, a competitive landscape, you will have, you know, a logo, you will have branding, you will have this, it was more like, we will meet once a week on Wednesdays, you will get notes from the meeting, like really, really specific. So people feel like, like, you're not just buying I was very practical. I was like, they're just buying strategy. They're not. They're buying you they're buying your time, they're buying your expertise. They're buying access to your wisdom and, and your knowledge and ability to help them your fiduciary in many ways and advisor. And so once I understood that client management was a bigger part of this than simply deliverables. It really shifted how I approached proposals, because I understood that it was very much a, it was like a relationship, it was, we're going on a date, where you know, you have to understand both what you're getting into and how I do it. That's different. Because anyone could give you these deliverables, right? What was different about me? So spelling it out for someone, they're not going to put two and two together on their own, you have to make it as clear as possible, how much they're getting from you and your team?
Conor McCarthy 13:02
I love that someone said to me recently enough, they said clarity is kindness. Oh, yeah, that's brilliant. Because lack of clarity, as we know, creates confusion. And confusion usually leads to lack of confidence in whatever we're by, or even lack of self confidence when we don't know where we're going. We can tend to lose confidence. So yeah, why why not give the client and yourself a total, like super simple breakdown of everything that's got to happen, what time when, For how much? It's really dumb to say.
Margo Aaron 13:36
I think alot of people don't know, though, like in their defense, I can definitely tell you in the beginning, I didn't notice think that way. I would have just said like, Oh, you want to sock here's a sock, I'm going to sell it to you for this much. I wouldn't have said like, Okay, first the sock is going to come in this container, then you're going to pick it up at this place. Then what I'm going to do is I'm going to do all the insurance deals behind the scenes. So your sock is totally certified, and absolutely pristine condition. And I will do all the paperwork like I didn't notice think that way.
Conor McCarthy 14:03
Yeah. You just kind of picked it up as you went. Were there any? Were there any times where it didn't work in your favor? where you're like, learned the hard way? Yes.
Margo Aaron 14:15
I had finally quit this job. And I was I was doing a lot of just meeting people, which is really tedious. And anyone who's in that position knows that, like you take 10 meetings and you know, maybe one is useful. And so I became an expert at going to meetings, and I wasn't closing anything with nothing. And I was like What is going on? I'm a genius. What's happening? You know, my little entitled millennial over here, and no, but I was really starting to feel like oh my god, maybe I'm not cut out for this. Maybe there's a game being played around me like what is going on? And I called my friend mark up. And I told him what was going on. He said, walk me through one of these meetings. Tell me what's going on. And so I said, Okay, well I sit down and You know, you do your little, how are you? How's the weather, blah, blah, blah. And, and then I say, Alright, so tell me what your what's going on. And the person starts telling me what the problem is in the business. And I immediately I'm like, Oh, I know how to fix this. And so I interrupt them, and I tell them how to fix it. And I tell them why I am so good at fixing it. And then they never call me back. Like, okay, well, I have some edits. Are you ready for some tough love, and he's the only person who could really talk this way to me. And he's like, I mean, this with all due respect, you need to shut up. And I was like, what, I'm sorry, what? And he was like, Listen, and mirror is actually in my, in my upcoming copy, workshop, listen, and mirror. He said, You your job in that first meeting is not to talk at all, the only thing you're allowed to do is ask questions. And then you can tell them what you heard. That is all you're allowed to do. And as what that doesn't work, like, don't they want to use? No, there he goes, put yourself in the buyers perspective. If you're someone who wants someone to solve your problem, you want to make sure they understand the problem, you don't give a shit how they solve it. You just want it off of your hands. So your goal in that first meeting is for them to trust you. Until like you beyond that, they don't care. And I was like, yeah, let me tell you, Hunter, I closed 90% of deals after that.
Conor McCarthy 16:35
Oh, my God.
Margo Aaron 16:37
Like I sat down, it changed my life. Like I, I started listening, I could feel myself chomping at the bit. I mean, you see how much I talk right now. Like we're in a podcast, I still can't stop myself. Imagine if this was in a sales conversation. so profoundly annoying. And so I learned to listen, to let them talk as much as they need to strategically interrupted appropriate places to ask for clarification, or, or reframing things like so what I hear you saying is, you're frustrated that this isn't happening, and that you'd like this metric to move to this metric. And it sounds like and then I just say whatever. They said to me, and they would go, Oh, my God, you get it? You get it? and be like, Yes, I get it. And I said, I actually think that we can we can absolutely help you with that. And and that's how about I send over a proposal and we wouldn't discuss the details at all.
Conor McCarthy 17:33
Right?
Margo Aaron 17:34
Not in that first call.
Conor McCarthy 17:36
Yeah. That is wired to be to be a fly on the wall in one of those calls. Just because it's again, like everything you say, is so simple and obvious, not the like, but you still have to learn these things. And your friend did you a great service by telling you to Hey, to here's what you gotta listen. But but it's like that. I know from experience, that's a hard thing to do to sit in those early meetings and be like, just listen, even though I really want to pitch I really want to sell right now. We're already eight minutes in. But so it takes quite a bit of Zen like discipline to sit and nod your head? And do as you say, strategically add yourself.
Margo Aaron 18:20
Yes. And that's the irony of sales. For anyone listening, that's like you actually shouldn't be selling. You're just you're listening, and you're matchmaking someone's problem with your solution, like anytime that I've ever had to sell in the traditional way where I had to, like, prove myself or convince someone, it never worked. It never worked if the person came from a defensive stance where they were like, So how might you know this? Where they be like, Who have you worked with before? What brands did you work with? What did you do that or like when they ask for stuff that was like very clearly on my website, or they were seemingly distrusting 10 times out of 10 that came from a place of having had really poor experience with an agency before. And I learned that after getting when you build relationships with a lot of your clients, they share proposals with you. And so I got to see contracts and proposals from the pitches that people were being sent and it is in the marketing field specifically, they're so bad and when I saw the bar I did No wonder you're confused and you don't like a morphus like agency language because this thing that you spent 50 grand on like they gave you no deliverable. Nothing. Like I don't know what this means either.
Conor McCarthy 19:32
Wow, what a what a peek behind the The Wizard of Oz curtains to actually see the reality of but but also it must have brought great empathy for your clients or clients to be where it's like, oh, yeah, they live in a world of crappy proposals that have no deliverables are unclear, or too pushy or too expensive. Whatever it is, and if you could just see that and kind of go well. Oh, they prefer to receive. Yes, that's a huge step.
Margo Aaron 19:59
Yes, and spelling it out. Because like, here's the thing about marketing is that it's one of those things that we all think we kind of know and understand. Because it's like you said, it's not rocket science here. But most of us, right now ask yourself, do you know the difference between marketing, advertising and PR? Oh, God don't put me on the spot Margo. In branding, people have no idea. But they think they do. Because they're like, well, I should, like I probably do. And then they kind of go along with you, they will never say I don't know what those words mean, because it's embarrassing. And so a lot of times, the way I would build that trust is i would i would call the elephant room, you know, I would say, Listen, I totally know that you already know this. But like, just a reminder. So branding is the set of perceptions people have about something in your mind, advertising is paying to get in front of a very specific audience, PR is public relations. So the little it's kind of like our relationship with the media. And it's very confusing what PR actually means today with social media, because the lines are really blurry. So if that's confusing, we can talk about it later. And then marketing is like the whole umbrella, you know, and I would, I would just break it down like that. And they'd be like, the, again, it's like what you said about clarity, being kindness. So I didn't make them feel shame. But suddenly, they knew what they were buying. So I could, I could also set a boundary, which is a big thing. So I was able to say like, what we do is branding, we are not doing advertising. If you want advertising, you can work with another company. And like I made it really, really clear what those lines were.
Conor McCarthy 21:28
I love that there's yet the clarity is kind of thing. Like I know, if I was presented with that in the way that you would do. I would that would be one of my big takeaways, that idea of Oh, Margo, broke it all down for us like that immediately. It's nothing to do with the job. It was you helping to educate. Which is so so valuable, and you would walk away, even if, if they didn't work with you. I know, people would walk away from that kind of going, Oh, actually no more than I left? Yes.
Margo Aaron 21:59
Yes, I wanted to empower them without fully giving them the answer to their problems, because I still wanted to work. And here's the other thing, you give someone an answer, they still don't do it. Because execution is the game. So I could solve your problem in five minutes. But there still are like, well, I don't want to do it.
Conor McCarthy 22:14
Do it, that sounds like work! And so okay, it's got this stuff here. Are there any things you did to make sure that you stayed working with the same clients?
Margo Aaron 22:25
Yes. So I built in checkins, all the time, make sure they had FaceTime with me. So meetings were really important, in addition to onboarding, but also like throughout having checkpoints. And they also this, this happens sort of as a consequence of having built a relationship with them. They sent me referrals. So in addition to working with them, because I'd have an end date for them, but they would send me referrals. And then if we reach the end date, I would say, here are a few ways that you can move forward, here's what you can do what I've set you up to do, if you want to do it just with your team, here's what it would look like to do it with me and my team, here's a hybrid version. And I'd be I'd be transparent about what they could do. Because there are certain things like I wanted to set them up. So they could do it on their own. But some people didn't want to, or some people just didn't have the staff to be able to do it. It was cheaper to work with me. And sometimes if I trained up a staff, which I've done, I'd be like, how about this hybrid version? I'll train your staff for the next six months, and then you're off to the races. So we did stuff like that.
Conor McCarthy 23:31
Okay, wow, you really yeah, you had all stages you were offering value, even before anything was signed, after things were signed, you were constantly you always have a client in mind.
Margo Aaron 23:43
The key is to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And as I think what was different about going from Freelancer to owner, which is really just a mindset and a 1099 form, like an LLC form is, is it allowed me to empathize. It really did. Because I could look where I, you know, when I was in the agency world, I had a job, I kind of looked at clients with disdain for not understanding marketing. And then when I was an owner, I'd be like, Well, why would they want to spend money on this, like, look at their cash flow, like you really do need to justify yourself. That's not because it's below you. And that's because they're just trying to make ends meet and pay their staff. So if you go in with that understanding without being like cocky about it, people really appreciate that kind of candor. And, and what I learned was, business owners want to work with businesses, they want to work with business owners, they respect you. It's more than just subject matter expertise. It's also like this person understands what stress I'm under, they know how to communicate with me in a respectful manner. They're not going to demand stuff with me, because the biggest frustration here's the thing, the biggest frustration with freelancers and consultants and stuff like that is that they want your time. They're going to cost you money and more work, and they never show up. They never hit deadlines, they ghost you have to hound them. So I was able to put myself in that perspective of like, if I was going to pay someone, what would I want? Like? Well, I would want them to check in with me, and and not make me do any work. So like I started implementing a every Friday, you're going to get a bulleted list of what got done. You don't have to read it. But you don't ever have to hound me for what what the status is, and we don't have to do dumb status calls. That's called the frickin worst. And like, no one cares, they just want to know that you're doing things. And so and so you have this paper trail of things that you can look at, okay, well, here's where we are on this deadline. And I just add information, if they had questions, they could respond to like little things like that, that way built into how we work together, made it so it's like, okay, you work with Margot, you do less work and she respects your time.
Conor McCarthy 25:41
Yeah, I like the simplicity. That is great. It's almost taking. It's almost sitting down with a pen and paper and saying, what would be a crappy experience? Yes, for a client, like it's sad to hear Auntie, Auntie experience, and listing all those things acts as a rite of well, if I don't do those, it's that this is going to be really good or great. Yeah, I get that. So smart. And those things often are kind of free. They're not like an added burden on it with maybe a little bit more time for you just again, and being clear, or sending up certain deliverables, but probably really pay off in terms of the relationship, the the depth of relationship and the quality of work.
Margo Aaron 26:19
Yeah, absolutely.
Conor McCarthy 26:21
So good. That's, you're saying all these now, and I know so many of these were probably learned, like the hard way is, right next time, I'm not going to do that again or definitely doing that again.
Margo Aaron 26:32
100%. That's the thing I like y'all. If you're on client number three, or four, or customer number seven, like it is really hard, especially if you are at a point in your career where you feel good at what you do. And it's just so humbling to be like shit, I am not good at this. And like having to learn these skills. Because it is a different skill. It's a different skill. It's a skill of sales. It's a skill of relationship building, it's a skill of execution. It's a skill of, you know, managing people managing timelines, project management, like boundary setting, like so many things that like, I don't think it's possible to strategize your way to figuring out how to do this for you. Like you really just have to be in it. And you have to make the mistake, and it's trial by fire.
Conor McCarthy 27:15
That's so well said that may end up being the official quote of the podcast. No, it's so true. Because I get asked all the time, I had a conversation last week with some students about, you know, the atomic marketing. Yeah, there's just like, we went around the room, but everyone had a different definition of what marketing was. And a lot of people kind of fell on the same thing of, quote, unquote, putting yourself out there. Yeah. And everyone's like, and it was, it was kind of it was a Wally conversation, you could tell that no one really knew what it was. And so it made people a bit scared, was like, Well, what? Okay, so now I saw, do I need an Instagram account? And it was it was so it was really interesting to watch this conversation happen. Yeah, it is hard. Yeah. I hope you're enjoying this episode, and that there's some actionable and insightful advice that you can take out to your business, helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast, and want more information, including a bunch of free resources on how to find your first 10 customers and grow your business, check out first 10 podcast.com 10 one zero, or find me on Twitter at the first 10 apart. Now, you probably hear what I'm about to say on every podcast you listen to. And it makes a really big difference to the show. If you find this podcast in any way useful or enjoyable, I'd be so grateful. If you left me a review on iTunes, it really does make a big difference in terms of other people discovering the podcast. Also, if you leave a review, you will get to see your name on the review. In lights. What we'll do is I'll design your words and post them online, taking you on your project along with it. I know it's a pretty sweet deal. Okay, let's get on with the show. What would you say to to freelancers, who are you know, they're they're still looking for their first 10. But just from a marketing perspective, because you're so good at this. Like, what? What does it mean to market yourself as a freelancer in the early days?
Margo Aaron 29:08
Yesss! Okay. Well, let's talk about the definition of marketing, because most people think it's telling people that you exist, right like, I am here, I have arrived, I'm putting out my shingle. Why is no one buying and like, in your defense, I believe that too. For most of human history, that's what it was because we had limited channels, limited exposure, and there weren't many products. And so if you did just say hey, I sell vacuums, and no one else sells vacuums, then it's like, okay, thank you for telling me That's great. I would like a vacuum. Right? It worked. Now we are in the millions of channels and ways in which you can meet people. There are 1000s of people who do exactly what you do, except not you, you are special. But but there's How do you communicate that so I want you to think about marketing, not just telling people what you do and that you've arrived, but as the art and science of getting people to care. That's The question you're always answering, why should I care? And if you can answer that for someone, not why you think you're great, or what you think you can do, but like, what is someone's problem? Right? What What, What problem? Do you solve us a problem solution framework? If you were a video editor, and you're looking for your first 10, why would someone want a video editor? Right is it and as specific as you can be, they want a video edit because they are launching a YouTube channel or they want a video editor because they have a wedding coming up. Or they want a video editor like the more you can figure out the different problems your solution solves, which can be many. The easier it is to make that connection between what someone is struggling with and what you can do, why they should care why they should what's in it for them. That's the thing like this is where I do believe marketing is really generous. And I so much struggle with this idea that marketing is selfish and annoying. Because it doesn't have to be right. If you put everything in the frame of like, what's in it for you. Then it's not annoying, like when gap emails me and they're like, we have your favorite pair of pants. I'm like, Yes, thank you. Like those. I signed up, I want the pants. So this email does not annoy me. Um, but but in thinking about specifically as it relates to freelancers, and people starting to get their first 10. I want you to think about number one, not scaling, do things that don't scale, because that is the way you get there with so many people put the cart before the horse and they're like, Okay, I'm on I get this. I get this question all the time. So it's like, I have an Instagram account. I am I'm doing content. I'm putting blogs out there and nothing's happening. And I'm like, I mean, I've been on who's reading you're like who's following you? How are you finding them? How many have one on one conversations if you take nothing else away from this have one on one conversations because that's the magic. And if you don't want to take my word for it, take Ogilvy he's the guy Don Draper's based off of. And he has a great book that will teach you all about sales, called Ogilvy on marketing and and he has another one confessions of an ad man, but it literally outlines how he did a lot of how he built built his business. And but he all about what PNG is like this to every single major company that you know, was built off the back of one on one relationships that that you then eventually scale because here's the key, you see patterns, you start to understand this person's all talk the way this person talks, this means they don't have a budget, the way this person talks, it means that they actually have a problem I could solve and I need to send them to this resource and give them these four things. They want these four pieces of information, right? You start to notice patterns, but you cannot notice them if you're busy just broadcasting out without letting anything in.
Conor McCarthy 32:41
So interesting, again, back to that thing of two years one math, it's like what am I almost like having a little reflection or a debrief with yourself after? After your one to one calls? or afterr, you know, with any kind of interactions? Like what am I? What am I picking up on here? What am I learning and trying to see those patterns? I think it's a really, it's a really smart way to you could learn quickly because, yep, every meeting, you could technically learn something every interaction every email exchange.
Margo Aaron 33:08
Absolutely. And you learn like, like I say, you learn the hard way. Like, let me tell you how many conversations I had where I thought I had a perfect avatar for products I launched when I realized interviewing people who don't spend money with you is a waste of time. And like that's for product, there's a little bit different, so are like people who are friends and family, people like you but you learn through doing you learn through doing and so one of the reasons one on one is really important when you're freelancing though is that those people have friends. And like what you want is you want to start that word of mouth. Like we're still here's the thing, no matter how much social media and digital and automation and optimizing, blah, blah, blah, that we have, you're still a human being. And in the end of the day, despite our efforts, we cannot overcome our own humanity. And people like to talk. So if you're my friend, you know which hairdresser I like, you know which manicurist I like you know where I'm buying my pants, because I am telling you and I'm excited about it. And there is nothing that is breaking that down. And so if you have a meeting, even if it's not with a lead, but you get to practice your pitch, this is what I do. That's so important. You get clearer and clearer on how you talk about what you do, where you talk about it, who you talk about it with and you start getting clarity on those things because I think people think like, oh, okay, I can just raise my put my shingle out, and people are gonna show up and it's not true. If you're a video editor, you want to know like, what competition there is what Where are there gaps in the market that you are? What nice will work with you, you want to know your specific disposition? Should you be teaching editing, or should you be doing editing? Like there are questions that you can ask yourself that are revealed when you start interacting with the market and by the way, these one on ones can happen in your dm so if you want to be building a platform, like it doesn't have to just be in person. It can also be just ask people questions, you send you messages. We are Why did you What was interesting to you about it, you know, do you listen to podcasts, which ones you know, get an idea of who they are. Don't just pitch them.
Conor McCarthy 35:01
Hmm. Yeah. Be curious. Be curious first.
Margo Aaron 35:04
Yes.
Conor McCarthy 35:05
Yeah. Don't just pitch them. That's, that's great. I just wanted. You mentioned books a moment ago. Are there any books you would recommend to people in the areas of marketing and sales? I know you mentioned Ogilvy, but anything else that's like, yeah, this is a Bible.
Margo Aaron 35:20
Oh, my God, my Bible. I've two, they're both by the same guy, Claude Hopkins, is that what's the name of his book? One is scientific advertising. And the other one is my life in advertising. So my life and advertising is the one I would recommend because it is it's a memoir. So if you like narrative form, it's it's better. But it is like, it says it's a memoir. But it's actually like a toolkit for sales. And it was in 1923, that he published that I think, Wow, you literally feel like you stepped out and you're looking and walking around in the era. And he is he's a copywriter. And so it's really, really clear, like, there's no BS, very direct, very direct. And it's not dated at all, like you It could have been written yesterday. And the reason I recommend it for people, he distills these basic human truths, and created a philosophy that has now become the norm. So like, when you go to the store, and someone offers you a sample, that's because of like, when he understood coupon and he understood positioning, he understood, like there are markets that he invented that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for him. And that has to do with a very simple fact, he says it in chapter one that like, he had a working class, Mom and family. And he understood listening to people. And that much of what he saw in the sales world was educated, wealthy people trying to relate that couldn't. And so his entire philosophy is like pay attention to what people want.
Conor McCarthy 36:53
Wow, that's, okay, that's going on the list. Yeah, it's, it's lovely to get such a good summary of a book that makes me kind of go, I need to read this. It was written almost 100 years ago, and it's Yeah, that relevant. Yeah. Brilliant. coming forward in time, a little bit, you know, you've done a lot of different types of work and started different types of businesses. I know that there's other things that you do, where that would tie into finding first time customers to talk about any of your more recent projects.
Margo Aaron 37:25
Absolutely. So I sell courses now. And I also I used to sell workshops, and I guess they're all workshops. There are different formats, like somewhere group somewhere, one on one, but I only I stopped doing them because of the past, I would still love to do workshop was impossible to get in at home. But um, so So of course, this is a really different beast, because you have an I had an email list. So an email list was really different, I would say that that counted as my first 10 more than, like getting my first 10 customers from an email list was a really cool experience really hard like I I thought it would be a lot easier because I drank the kool aid of lifestyle entrepreneurship. And I was like, I have nurtured my list, I will send and I have done my research. And I will send one email and the sales will trickle in. And they'll send on reminder email, and like it just did not work like that. And so I'm learning that was a very humbling, trying to understand the difference between readers and buyers was humbling. And that was huge. There are some people who will buy your book and love consuming your content, and they will be free forever. And it really helped me when remede Satie talked about this that like, majority of the sales came from, like 10% of the list, you know, like something like that, even if you have high open rates, like the people who are really ready to buy are much smaller segments. So he had something that he launched to maybe like 60 or 70,000 people and all their sales came from a small segment of 3000. Like, but here's the thing, here's the magic of segments when you're doing email list is I would, so when I started, it was small, I would have a segment of maybe 80 people, 100 people, 200 people, they would start to grow, but it was small. And I would have like my regular list. And then I'd be like, you know what, these people I was tagging what they clicked on. And they asked like, I think they might like this offer every time I've teased it, they've kind of clicked on it. So I would segment them and I would say this is an email just for y'all. That's not going out to the major list. It's not coming on a regular day. Here's the you know, here's what it is. If you're interested click here. And my open rates were like 90% on those my click through rates were like 70% it was insane. Because to them they were they were the people paying attention. And when I when I got the when I mismatched it though the numbers were like really bad, when I got it, right, it was really incredible.
Conor McCarthy 39:51
That is amazing Yeah, so two things on that. Yeah, I think people trying to build email lists to sell courses. I take quite a few of those people as well. There is that sense of, if you just build a list everyone's going to buy And to your point, no percentage, maybe a single digit percentage will buy, if you're lucky. But but that idea of segmenting your list, and we won't get into the technical details of how to do that. That's another idea. Going back to the idea of relationships, you're actually able to talk to them like, like you're in a room with them. Like, it's like, okay, I've brought you into this room, because I want to tell you something really cool. it's such a great feeling for them to kind of go, oh, oh, I'm on this. I'm in this club.
Margo Aaron 40:34
Totally. And that's what helped me also distinguished between readers and buyers, because I had had established a pretty good rapport with people who read and open my emails. But I realized that there was a very different profile of people who actually click Buy. And often they didn't reply ever. So I'd never even heard of them, they just bought. So when I first I would say my first like, real product in the space wasn't actually a course it was a I called it a virtual co working space. So it's a community. And it's called the arena. And it was a membership platform. So you were billed either monthly, or every three months, I tested different versions. And the profile for that was totally different. It was a very specific type of entrepreneur, and it challenged who, who I thought was on my list, definitely elevated it. Like I was very excited that the type of people who were on there, but it was different than what I had assumed. Like there's the it's this, it can get this nuanced, y'all. It's the difference between someone who identifies as a founder, and someone who identifies as a content creator, even though their life might look the same. Someone who identifies as a freelancer versus a startup founder.
Conor McCarthy 41:40
Yes. Okay, really. That is, it's, it's amazing that the, quote unquote, data that must come out of customer interactions at even a little bit of scale, like to your point, you're saying you don't have massive lists, but you've got enough list to kind of go, what would happen if I did this? Or said this? Or what can I learn by doing this? That would be really useful for you to kind of want to pick up new courses or to think of new ways to talk to your audience
Margo Aaron 42:09
100% and I had to humble myself, because the here's the thing that's difficult about your first 10 verses when you scale is that your first 10 are not always representative of what you end up doing. And so I had a lot of early adopters, where I thought, there were a lot of juggernauts in marketing who were on my list. So I thought they were all my people. And it turns out, I hated them. I did not like them. Like, here's the thing about marketing. It's not the same in all industries. But like marketers read about marketing, no one else does. And so I really wanted founders and more specifically, service based businesses and lifestyle entrepreneurs, the people who felt like they wanted to do something more with their life and had something to say. And it took me so long to figure that out. I was like, No, no, no, they they their impact of in their social entrepreneurs, their ethical marketers, I tried every single head on and it just kept being the same patterns over and over again, that was like Jesus Margo, notice the pattern
Conor McCarthy 43:04
You're trying to take, like a bucket, a huge bucket and all you need is just a little cup full of people or a persona, if you like, of like that, that's exactly who I'm going for. And what else? We could talk about the copy workshop, if you want to for a second, this is like, this is what do they call it a special? Early Bird special or no? It's not that, what is it called? sneak preview. That's it!
Margo Aaron 43:34
Yes,
Conor McCarthy 43:35
Yes. Tell us about that. Anyway, you go.
Margo Aaron 43:39
Well, you know, it's no, it's related to your first ten because I'll tell you what happened. I'll share this with the listeners. Because I don't, I'm pretty open about it. But when the pandemic hit, I had to shut down a lot of my revenue streams because I became a default stay at home parent for a while. It just was the situation we found ourselves in. And so that made doing live programs and selling really difficult. So I had to rethink my business model, which was very much reliant on me being present. And so I started and doing top of the funnel stuff, I'm really good at bottom of the funnel, I wasn't it Tom, the funnel was really hard. And for people who don't know what that is, top of the funnel is like people finding out about you bottom of the funnel is them buying from you. And it's, it's a sales track. Anyway, so I want what it means is once people were on my list, I was great getting them to buy my programs, but I couldn't grow the list. And so until I started pursuing partnerships, where I'm like, Okay, well if I can't grow the list, and I will get in front of other people's audiences, and so I had to basically start this process over your first 10. So I did a bunch of partnerships none of you have heard of because they didn't go anywhere. So like I did a partnership with Scribd, which I thought would be huge, and they told me they had millions of people and I got I don't even know how many sales I got on that. It was very small. And because when people tell you that most people, they have like a point oh 2%, okay. But I have an audio book there, you can go look it up, I partnered with Skillshare on a few things, which was cool. I got, I have like 3000 students there, which was really cool. But the cash didn't make any sense, their revenue model was just not fair or it didn't make any sense. And so it was great for credibility. But it didn't drive traffic to me personally. And it didn't bring that much cash in. And so it's cool that you can google me and that exists. But it didn't have the effect I wanted. So okay, now I've tried to so like I kept doing this over and over. And that's when now what referring to the copy workshop is a partnership with a Kimbo. So I came in, I built the curriculum. And I worked with the team to build an akimbo workshop, but it's going out to their audience. And so I eventually it will go out to mine, but right now it is, it is alumni only, but it has been, it's been fantastic. So now I don't have to do the heavy lifting on marketing that I would like to do, but I just physically can't because of my circumstances. And so, so yeah, it's again, getting my first 10 Yeah, it's getting work, it's the same process.
Conor McCarthy 46:17
You're going up the mountain, you're coming down the mountain again, and going up similar looking mountains all over again. But that's it's kind of fascinating, because obviously, you're you're so good at learning, and taking what you're learning and applying it. Like this is a constant thing that I'm hearing like every new situation you go into, you're more than willing to experiment, test, try stuff out, totally willing for things to fail. And they've been Of course, the greatest teachers. And but this akimbo workshop will be another way of kind of going, yes is also a very interesting way to find first ten or first 100 however many people do the workshop.
Margo Aaron 46:55
Yeah. absolutely. Absolutely. And by the way, the experimentation never ends. Because even now, at this point in my career, I am literally teaching a course on copywriting. And I still am like, I've written an email four or five, six different ways. And some people got a great version and some got a garbage version, because you just cannot shortcut this process. No matter how many years you're in it, like I know more than I used to, I'm definitely more talented. But you there are things that only exist between the market and your products. So it doesn't matter what your skills are the markets going to tell you what it wants to know what it wants to buy. And so you Your job is to keep going at that to just keep throwing balls and be like, what about this one? What about this one? What about this one? And they're gonna be like, No, no, no, no. Oh, I like that and that's just how it is. I wish it was different.
Conor McCarthy 47:45
I know, it's, yeah, I like that. It's almost like, Well, I'm not going home. I'm gonna keep throwing stuff out there. So you better pick one of them. As a final question, I always ask, what advice would you give to someone who's just starting out to find their first 10 customers to a freelancer starting to find the first 10 customers? To be honest, you've given so many good examples here that maybe I don't need to ask it. But it's not the best thing you're like, definitely do this. And even if you want to repeat something, that's okay.
Margo Aaron 48:14
Yeah, I mean, I would say relationships, but I'll build on that. I think if you're starting out, one of the things that's really hard when you're shifting into sales gear for the first time, is recognizing that like, talking about what you do is not annoying to the market. And, like getting that comfort with, I'm in business, I have to sell things that's part of my lifeblood. It's not sleazy, right, like, there are ways that you can do it that are extremely generous when you find the right people and that this process is iterative. So the first few times you do it, it's going to be weird, but get in front of as many people as you can and make a fool of yourself. That's the only way.
Conor McCarthy 48:52
Love that. She says the big smile on your faces. I got the right to ties. I've made a fool of myself. But it's it's working. Yeah.
Margo Aaron 49:01
That's how you find your people you really do. I have a friend who I called her up because, you know, it's pandemic right now. When this airs, it'll maybe still be pandemic and I saw someone on the street and I like went up and was like, Hey, you have a kid. I have a kid. We should be friends. You know, I was like, I was very weird. I was very weird. And I told my friend I was like, I think I was like not that was inappropriate. And my friend goes no, it's the perfect filter it's just like sales if they don't like your weirdness upfront and and they don't want to do business with you, like way to cut your losses.
Conor McCarthy 49:36
Way to immediately matchmake. Just like, this for you, this for you? Yeah, okay, let's go. So funny. Margo, thank you. Thank you for all that. Oh, my God, that's I may have to have you on in a future season because there's so much in there. There was so many little things where it's like, let's go down that road. And you're so you're so generous with everything you've learned sometimes the hard way, often the hard way. Copy is one of those things such as secret writing nerd, a copywriting nerd. And, but like practically speaking, like if you're not in the room, good copy is one of those things that has to speak on your behalf and do the selling the selling for you, however you want to take the word selling. And I think even an ounce of learning how to write good copy always pays off, and your website and your courses and all that I think are brilliant. I honestly I go there. When I'm like stuck on something. It's like, I'm going to go check out Mario Mario site, because there's something to do in the way you write this. Like, it's just very, it's very smart. It's very onpoint and you really know how to talk to the people you serve. So thank you for all that work.
Margo Aaron 50:49
Oh, I'm so excited for you read Claude Hopkins, you know, your brain is gonna explode.
Conor McCarthy 50:55
I will, I will. Yes, thank you so much for taking the time here today. And I'll include all your links in the show notes so people can check out your awesome work.
Margo Aaron 51:04
Thank you for having me.
