#37 - Brian Casel of ZipMessage
[#37] - How to talk to your customers with Brian Casel
This week, joining the podcast is special guest, serial entrepreneur, and the king of shiny objects, Brian Casel. Brian is the founder of Zip Message, a popular video messaging tool for async conversations, which launched at the beginning of 2021. Brian recently sold and exited some of his earlier businesses, including Audience Ops and ProcessKit. Brian firmly believes that with each business opportunity came great learnings and experiences, which he has carried forward to get him to where he is today.
Get ready to dive into an episode filled with fascinating insights and advice as Brian brings us on his journey from freelancing to fearlessly launching and running multiple businesses. In this episode, Brian offers brilliant advice for business start-ups as he openly shares how to talk to your customers, tactics for building an audience, how to master sales calls, and how to approach the awkward conversation of pricing. Key points throughout the discussion include:
An introduction to Brian Casel.
The leap from freelancing to building businesses.
The joy of obtaining your first customer.
Building an audience through networking.
Mastering sales: how to get the most out of sales calls.
Customer observation: learning from customer pain points.
Curiosity is key: questions to ask your customers.
Attracting your ideal customer base.
Increasing brand awareness and speaking directly with potential customers.
The benefits of asynchronous communication.
How to discuss pricing with potential clients.
Assessing and filtering through business ideas.
Book recommendations for business builders.
Brian’s advice for obtaining your first 10 customers.
”I went through this long list of businesses. I would never have landed on Zip Message if I didn't learn things from Process Kit. I never would have landed on Process Kit if I didn't learn a ton from Audience Ops and Audience Ops came from what I learned from Restaurant Engine. I wouldn't have landed on those ideas unless I had gone through that experience.” – Brian Casel.
Connect with Brian Casel:
https://briancasel.com/podcasts
https://www.linkedin.com/in/briancasel/
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
https://www.first10podcast.com
https://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
https://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Resources:
Book: The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick.
http://momtestbook.com/
Book: The Cold Start Problem by Andrew Chen.
Check out my podcast partners!
Buzzsprout:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=1389931
Otter:
https://otter.ai/referrals/ETRNKY16
Calendly:
https://calendly.grsm.io/ilev18qxpn1e
Produced in partnership with podlad.com
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
zip, calls, customers, people, business, message, questions, paying, podcast, sold, building, idea, brian, product, grow, tool, audience, asynchronous, saas, person
SPEAKERS
Conor McCarthy, Brian Casel
Brian Casel 00:00
I would never have landed on zip message now if I didn't learn things from process kit, I never would have landed on process kit if I didn't learn a ton from audience ops audience apps came from what I learned for restaurant engine, I wouldn't have landed on those ideas unless I had gone through that that experience.
Conor McCarthy 00:19
Hello, and welcome to season four of the first 10 podcast. I'm your host Conor McCarthy, and I help people start and grow their businesses. I do that through joint ventures, collaborations, coaching, and online workshops. In each episode of this podcast, I interview business builders about the early days of starting a business, about how they found their first 10 customers and got off the ground, so you can learn what works and what doesn't. Check out my website ConorMcCarthy.me. for more details. My guest today is Brian Casel. Brian has had a really fascinating serial entrepreneur journey. On today's episode, he fills us in on how he approached and launched a few of his businesses. from SaaS to product type services. Brian currently runs zip message, which is a tool for asynchronous video conversations with your team and customers. And I think it's a brilliant, brilliant piece of software. He also hosts his own podcast called Bootstrapped Web. Brian shares a ton from his extensive experience starting and growing businesses. In this episode, for example, we cover how to grow an audience for your business, how to talk to your customers and how to do it well, the best way to handle sales calls, how to talk about pricing, and shiny object syndrome, and so much more. Lastly, Brian has a great and kind of contrarian advice on the topic of focus when building your ideal business. So please do enjoy this episode with Brian Casel and thank you for listening. First of all, Brian, welcome to the show and thank you very much for taking the time to be with us here today.
Brian Casel 01:45
Thanks, Conor.
Conor McCarthy 01:47
Can you just give us a quick 60 or 90 second overview about you and your current business?
Brian Casel 01:51
Yeah, so my name is Brian Casel, I am the founder of Zip Message. That's the business that I'm now fully focused on. Mostly because I sold off all the other businesses that I that I had going before that just recently, like in the last five or six months. But yeah, Zip Message is a SaaS app for video messaging, you can also send screen and and audio only or even text messages. And it's it's for asynchronous messaging, asynchronous conversations. So you know, you might be familiar with it with tools like like loom where you can record a video and send it to someone, it's sort of similar to that, except the difference is you the other person can easily reply back to you. So it's really great for communicating with with like clients or freelancers or people that you might hire, or, or even podcasters are using it to get feedback from their listeners and things like that. So it's just really easy to hop into an asynchronous call and a good way to like replace, you know, Zoom calls and calendar bookings and things like that. Like real quick, I'm sure we'll get into it, but like before this, my main business for seven years was called Audience Ops and I sold that business in late 2021. That was a content service, like it was a productised service built around delivering blog content as a service, I had a team of writers and we would basically power the blogs for lots of mostly software companies. I had a couple of attempts at building other SaaS products in recent years and some of them were more successful than others. One that that did okay was called Process Kit. I grew, I worked on that I really learned full stack development with Ruby on Rails what while building that and ran that for about three years and I ended up selling that business last year, actually, just a few months ago, early 2022 is when I sold sold that one off, just couldn't continue growing it and Zip Message had much more traction at the time. So yeah, and you know, going going further back, I had another business called Restaurant Engine that was like a website builder for the restaurant industry bootstrapped and sold that business in 2015. And way before that, I was like a freelance web designer, web developer. So that's, that's where I come from.
Conor McCarthy 04:17
I love it the reverse history. That's brilliant. Thank you for that. That's a great overview. Because as I said before, like this is all about serial entrepreneurs this season. So it's people who have kind of picked up and done it again and again and again. So even to go back to I mean, do you have to go back to your freelance days if you want, but even the restaurant engine or any of the subsequent ones, do you remember what it was like getting your first 10 customers in any of those businesses?
Brian Casel 04:43
Oh, yeah, I mean, every single one. I often really believe that like the first customer like the first 10 customers, it's like even wait, it's so much more exciting than like your 100th customer. I think that's really true and I have to sort of remember back, but I, but yeah, I mean, I do more or less remember, like the when when it happened and sort of who it was and, and how it came about. So happy to go into it.
Conor McCarthy 05:14
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, whatever you're happy to share, even if it's because I know a lot of people listening to this, it will be kind of will be wondering just how yeah, how do we get the first one? I mean, 10 would be great. But even the first one would be?
Brian Casel 05:26
Yeah, let's see. I mean, a lot of it had to do with how my circumstance changed over the years. So like, in the more recent businesses, you know, I've grown a small audience for myself and a network. And so that's helped a lot in the more recent businesses, like, like, when I launched Zip Message, I had just announced it to my email list, and I have a podcast and I have, I have Twitter. And so that's generally where the first customers came from for that. Going back to Audience Ops, the content service, the way that what happened was, I just sent an a warm email to like 20 or 25 Friends, so people in the industry who I have, obviously, they're good friends with, or maybe I've met them at a conference or something like that. And, and I think I created like a one page, like, very basic informational page about this new content as a service idea. And, and I sort of just sent it to them, I was like, hey, what, how does this look to you? Do you have any thoughts or feedback, if you or anyone you might know, might might know someone who needs help with blog content? You know, I'd love an introduction. And then out of that, I think I got something like, six or seven phone calls. And out of that, I landed the first three clients, for the for the audience apps business,
Conor McCarthy 06:47
do you remember any of the any of the tactics used or the approach to those calls?
Brian Casel 06:52
I generally with, when it comes to calls like that, you can think of them like, I guess I think of them as like sales calls. But even like, because like for audience ops, I not only sold the first one but I sold, many of the clients that ever came on to audience apps only only at the very near the end of that business, I actually had a different salesperson doing that. But I was the person doing this sales calls most of the time. And, and I did those very first calls and my approach in general is just to really ask more questions than talk about it. Like I'm, I'm I come into with an approach like, I'm curious, I want to know who you are, what you're trying to do. And I want to I want to know, like, really what your goals are. But also, I think the biggest question that I want to ask is like, why are you even talking to me? You know, because like, if they didn't just pick up the phone randomly, if these are not cold calls, right? They found my website, or they heard about it from someone or they were introduced and then they went ahead and they booked the call with me. So if there's not some kernel of interest, they would never have even gotten on the call with me. So so my first thing that I want to do on any of these calls is like, why am I why are you talking to me? Like, like, clearly, clearly have some kind of need? Clearly you think that I might be able to help? So what is it that you think might, I might not word it this way but like, that's what I'm trying to ask them about. So so I'll probably ask them about like, so in the case of like audience ops, when I was selling the first client on, on like, a recurring monthly blog content plan, I was asking them, how do you currently handle blog content? You know, and that usually gets them talking about like, Well, I tried this, I tried to hire a freelancer, I tried to write it myself. And then, you know, I had a hard time with that, or it takes up too much time. And so now they're just telling me all these pain poi nts that they have. And, and yeah, and then, you know, I'm usually, I usually ask them like, well, what questions do you have for me? And that's when they'll start asking me about, like, how much does it cost? Or what's the process like, or what's included? And, and so, then I'm, I'm sort of observing, what are the questions that they're asking me because those are like, key point, key points of information that they would need to know about that later on, I will need to put on the website to make sure that I'm educating, you know, leads.
Conor McCarthy 09:21
Yeah, that's so interesting, like asking questions, of course, but paying attention to the questions they're asking. Because that's, it's it's signs of where you're not being fully clear in your offer, I guess.
Brian Casel 09:33
Yeah, and that really interesting thing, especially with with audience ops, I think that's, that's the business where I really honed my skills as a salesperson, I still don't think I'm a great phone salesperson. But I literally did hundreds of calls for like over the years of that business. And it was always really interesting to me how that literally the same exact questions came up so many times, which is just a clear indicator of like there are, there's a clear path, a clear roadmap that a person would need to go down in order to get to a point where they're comfortable enough to spend. And that's like an expensive service. So like there's, they're paying 1000s of dollars. So like, they have to get answers to a series of questions. And they usually word them in the exact same way. And it was just really interesting, so hearing the same question so many times and answering it so many times you get better and better with like a tighter response. It really helps a lot.
Conor McCarthy 10:37
So it's one of those just just got to do it, kind of thing. Did you ever do any formal sales training or anything like that on the job?
Brian Casel 10:45
Yeah, no, I did not come from a sales background or anything. But because I, again, I approached it like, I'm just curious, I want to know, and yeah, and also it helped, you know, I went from selling to restaurants and then I went to selling audience ops, which is mostly selling to like SaaS founders, that was like a breath of fresh air, right, because I didn't enjoy talking to restaurant owners, I didn't have anything in common with them. It wasn't a lot of them were kind of difficult to deal with. With sales for audience ops, and now even when I do Zip Message, sales, which is not so much over the phone, it's, it's just nice to be able to talk to friends and peers. Like, like the people that I talk to, even if I'm not close friends with them, they're the type of people I would probably be talking to at a conference and have a good time talking shop, you know, so.
Conor McCarthy 11:37
I mean, yeah, it's not to be overlooked, you know, do you actually enjoy your customers, because it means you'll have more sticking power, at the very least, you'll not only do a better job, but you'll hang around longer.
Brian Casel 11:49
Totally. I mean, that part of the reason I ended up selling the restaurant engine business back in 2015, was because I was like, alright, I figured out how to get organic leads and customers to the site. But I felt like I reached a ceiling on that. And like the next step to really grow, it would would be me flying to a different city to go to a restaurant industry conference or something like that. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. That's, that's not happening. So I don't think I could grow this business anymore and I ended up selling it.
Conor McCarthy 12:19
Okay, okay. Yeah, so that doesn't, that doesn't work. So when it came to Zip Message, and starting off Zip Message, it sounds like, I mean, you've done this a few times, you didn't have, it doesn't sound like you had much of a fear of launching a new, a new business, a new project? It was just a case. It was just a case of putting it out there.
Brian Casel 12:41
Yeah and Zip Message came about way faster than most other things that I built. I think I started, I think I had the idea for it in late 2020. And then I, first I ended up just coding, like a very basic version of it and designing a version of it within three months, and it was like March 2021 is when I had the first like first free users, and then the first paying customers was in April, like a month later.
Conor McCarthy 13:15
Okay wow, and then from then on, was it difficult for you to find, or I suppose to set up your, your lead generation framework?
Brian Casel 13:27
Well, Zip Message is sort of a different type of product than anything else that I've done, because there's a viral component to it. You know, once you sign up for Zip message, and you create a message, you send it to someone else, they receive it, and they can create it, you know, they can just reply back to you. But they could also create their own Zip Message account. So, so I'm starting to see some of that flywheel happen, okay. But I mean, it, it has still taken a lot of, like a full year of like, I talked about on my podcast, I go on other podcasts to talk about it a lot. But other sort of, like influential people have started using Zip Message, and then they tweet about it, and they talk about it, that that helps a lot. But then the interesting thing is, you know, talking about like, talking to those first customers, one of the things that I've been doing since the beginning of Zip Message, of course is like, I like to send a Zip Message to new users on zip message, like a lot of times, like I'm the first person sending them a message. And, and that's really great, because like, I'm actually having a really good asynchronous back and forth conversation with like a brand new customer who's trying to get value out of it or trying to learn how this works. They probably have a bunch of feature requests that I'm going to hear about, and I and it's nice to like not have to get on Zoom calls with every every one of these customers. And, and it's, it's been interesting to you, like the conversation flows in a different way when you're when you're asynchronous, you know, I feel like there's, it's, it's more, they pack more. How do I say like, if somebody is going to write, you know, pair, like a three minute video response for me, they're probably going to take some notes. First, they're probably going to prepare their ideas, they're probably going to have really good questions ready to go for me and then I'll come back to them, and then they, they'll receive it, they'll, they'll think about it, they'll they'll take a walk, and then come back to me. And so there's like a higher level of quality that happens. And we can actually move the ball forward. And I think on both ends, we're getting more insight more value out of it than then compared to if we're on a zoom call and we're sort of both put on the spot and we just have to react in the moment. You know.
Conor McCarthy 15:46
That is fascinating. Now that you say it, that makes complete sense. Because when you're invited to a zoom call, there's almost an unspoken idea there that like we will do all our thinking on the call. And that's not necessarily the best place to do all your thinking. And many zoom calls, you're probably finding this could just be replaced by some good asynchronous video message, maybe a shared doc or two. And you're done.
Brian Casel 16:10
Absolutely, yeah, totally. I see that all the time. I, I collaborate with other people on my work on zip message using zip message. And so like, I like to think about it like, we get to contribute our best possible ideas when we're asynchronous, because when we're on a on a zoom call, or a meeting, you know, again, like we're just sort of put on the spot. So if somebody asks you a question, like, how should we actually figure out this problem? How should we design this website? Or how should we do this marketing campaign? Well, here's an idea. What if we did this or that it's like, then then later on, you look back on it, like, oh, I had such a better idea, but I didn't think about it in the moment, right? This actually lets us to, lets us like, kind of take some space and prepare our better answer. And even like with Zip Message, you could record a response and say, you know what, I could have said that better or tighter? And just discard it and re record it before you send it.
Conor McCarthy 17:04
Okay. Yeah, yeah, it does it does make a lot of sense. I'm a fan. I hope you're enjoying this episode, and that there's some actionable and insightful advice that you can take out to your business. Helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast, and want more information, including a bunch of free resources on how to find your first 10 customers and grow your business, check out First10podcast.com, that's 10 one, zero, or find me on Twitter @thefirst10pod. Now, you probably hear what I'm about to say on every podcast you listen to and it makes a really big difference to the show. If you find this podcast in any way useful or enjoyable, I'd be so grateful if you left me a review on iTunes, it really does make a big difference in terms of other people discovering the podcast. Also, if you leave a review, you will get to see your name and the review in lights. What I'll do is I'll design your words and post them online, tagging you and your project along with it. I know it's a pretty sweet deal. Okay, let's get on with the show. Someone said to me there the other day that sometimes the timing of when you talk to a customer is really important, especially to a paying customer, someone who has said, You know what, this is something I need to the degree that I'm going to start paying subscription. When it comes to people who are customers, like, what's the kind of what's the feedback that you look for from paying customers? Is it different from people who are not yet paying customers?
Brian Casel 18:40
Yeah, like, like looking back at all the different products, it is it like when there was like a free trial, you know, it's always a question of like, well, is this person going to convert or not? And how much how much stock should I put in what they're telling me, on Zip Message we have, we actually have a free plan that anybody can use. I still think that like a free user still needs to get value out of the tool and I still want to make sure that the product is giving them some level of value. And upgrading is just a matter of like using it even more, you know, so. But like other products, like when I was doing audience ops, we don't have any sort of free service. It was really just about like a more traditional sales call like consultation. And, you know, I actually got to a point with audience ops after doing hundreds of those calls, I created a video that every every person sees, so like they book a call, but before they even get on that call, they see this 10 minute video. And then by the time I get on the call with them, they've already seen that they've seen the pricing and everything so you know they should be pretty serious. They shouldn't just be kicking the tires and you know not wasting anybody's time.
Conor McCarthy 19:57
Yeah, yeah, that's that's important. A little little barrier to entry just to get rid of the time wasters.
Brian Casel 20:02
Yeah. But like those early calls, like, you know, customer research, especially for a brand new product, I do try to get to the like the money question as at some point in the call, usually near the end of the call, because, you know, you don't want to have, you definitely don't want to do a lot of customer research and not even discuss pricing, like, and I also don't really like the idea of like, alright, well, here's this theoretical product, would you pay for something like this? Or how much would you pay for a tool like this? Because people are usually gonna try to tell you what they what you want to hear? Yeah. Instead, I like to ask, what are the other tools that you're currently paying for? That are sort of like this? And if you're willing to share, like, how much are you currently? Like, which plan on that other tool are you currently paying for? That's a really good indicator of like, okay, clearly, this is something they're paying for, and, and it's that important to them. And it's sort of just a matter of like, why would this thing be valuable for them to switch? You're not even really selling on them? You're really just convincing or trying to understand like, should should they replace that cost with paying for your product?
Conor McCarthy 21:12
That's a really smart way to do it. Because you're right, pricing and money can often be left to the end. Because it's difficult to talk about, especially if you're if you're new to sales or new to business, whatever. And I think that's a really smart way to do it. It's not necessarily asking them to give you a figure that they're just making up, or, or that they might feel they're committing to, but it's more like, what's, what's the world you live in? What are you actually paying for? That feels natural to you, that feels like you're getting value? Yep. Yeah, for sure. I like that. You must have a ton of ideas in the hopper, or things that you've had to say no to? Or approaches or collaborations and stuff? How do you filter? How do you self filter? Or how do you filter incoming ideas?
Brian Casel 21:58
Yeah, I feel like I'm the king of shiny objects. I've always tried to write them down, I put them in like a notes, document or something. I do keep a long list of ideas. I own way too many domain names that I got overexcited about, and then bought a domain. But you know, these days, I'm not really pursuing any of those because I'm really focused on zip message. I mean, I just recently did, some of the businesses that I sold were like, small projects that I did sort of build, but it didn't go anywhere. They were little shiny object ideas. But the ones that like are things that actually turn into real businesses for me are, first of all, I, I get the idea, and then I can't stop thinking about it. It's in the shower, it's at night is every day, it's just like, it doesn't go away, no matter how much I try to push it aside. I keep thinking about it. Like that's, that's one indication. Usually the other thing that happens is like, usually the reason why a new idea even appears, is because something in my current business is not going so well. Or, or I've I've been at this business a long time, and I feel burnt out on it. That's usually when, at least for me, like my mind has gone into like not not like actively searching for new ideas. But like, that's just when new things appear. Like, yeah, like, I mean, the idea for Zip Message, it was sort of scratching my own itch, I wanted a tool for asynchronous video messaging. But it was also like, I was working on process kit, which was another SaaS product I recently sold. And, for me, one of the big challenges that I had with that SaaS product was that it was, and so process kit is a tool for creating operating procedures and getting your team on board and automating them. And it's a pretty complicated product to get up and running and start using and you've got to get your whole team to adopt it. So it was a really tough process to get people to onboard and activate and start paying. And some people would they would go but it's like a huge lift for them to get their company to adopt it. And when I had the idea for Zip Message, part of the thing that made it super attractive to me was like, it's so easy to get up and use, you can just start using it and you can get value from it the within minutes of using your first Zip Message and you don't even need to get your whole company to adopt it. All you need to do is like send a message to one other person and it sort of just spreads like that. And so like like that, for me working on a business where onboarding was a really really big challenge. Like the idea of working on Zip Message was like really attractive At that moment for me.
Conor McCarthy 25:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really worth paying attention to as well. If you're launching something, and it is going to be a, something that yeah, you're going to need people to really rethink the way they work the way they do their work. In the case of process, process kit, versus Zip Message, which sounds like augmenting some things that they're already doing and just making, making things better. Just making communication better and easier and faster, more thought out.
Brian Casel 25:28
I mean, there, there is a lot of value in a tool that is that is like so essential that it does take over the way that your whole company works. Yeah. And I mean, that the new owner is growing it that way too. Like, it's, you know, there's a lot of really great tools that are really complicated and heavy to use, but that that usually means they're very valuable, and they're worth paying a lot of money for. So, you know, there's pros and cons.
Conor McCarthy 25:52
True, very true. Um, any books that you've read, ever, or even in the last while that you recommend to people who are like books that you either just like, or people that people who are looking for the first 10 customers would would enjoy reading?
Brian Casel 26:06
Let's see for the first 10 customers. Well, what I'm reading right now, is sort of related to Zip Message. It's a new book by Andrew Chen called the cold start problem. I don't know that it's super applicable to most people even even to me like it's, it's a lot of stories about like big tech companies like Uber and Airbnb and Dropbox. But the big focus is like, how do you start a, like a network based business like a viral premium business, and how to grow from a small network to, to a larger network. He's got some pretty interesting ideas. I mean, in general, I am not big on like business books that are like how to do something. I'm much more I do read business books, but usually they're more like biographies and stories. And I like that a lot. And I just like stories in general. That's why I'm such a fan of podcasts I like to listen to. I like to watch what other entrepreneurs are doing and building and following their stories. And, and then in terms of like, tactical stuff, I tend to just get the best knowledge by trying it and doing it. While just observing what other people are doing. You know, I actually I mean, I'm sure others have have recommended this other book The Mom Test. That's, that's a good one. I got some advice from that that's really good for like that early customer research.
Conor McCarthy 27:37
Yeah, it's it's a phenomenal book. And even that there's some pretty good videos out there as well. It's yeah, it's one I've recommended. I've read it a couple of times myself. It is it's, it's a pretty great, it's a well written book as well. It's pretty enjoyable read, let alone being useful. The last question, what advice would you give to people going out to find their first 10 customers?
Brian Casel 27:59
Good question. I've been talking about this a lot lately, actually. I think that when you're early on, just launch a lot of things. I don't mean, do them all at once. But you know, you will hear this advice, where people will say like, you have to focus on one thing, and you have to go all in on one thing. And don't, don't follow those shiny objects, you got to focus on on the thing that you have, you just got to give it more time to you know, double down on the thing that you have. I get that. And, and I'm doing that now. But I've been self employed for 13 years. And and I got a lot of value in my whole career. By doing a lot of things in the first 10 years of my career. I mean, I jumped from one business to the next, like, pretty rapidly and at many times, I had several things going. And in those early years, I was a freelancer consultant, basically making a living by selling my time, but I was willing to do projects where I was earning $0 for long hours of work, like building my first digital product, or putting out a first ebook to the world or trying to build a SaaS, I mean, your very first one here, your look, chances are you're not going to be successful with it. But you're going to learn a ton, especially if you're used to being a consultant where you're getting paid like $100 an hour for something you have to be willing to put in the same hours on your own projects getting paid nothing and because you're going to learn you're gonna get gained that experience. And I went through this long list of businesses, I would never have landed on Zip Message now if I didn't learn things from Process Kit, I never would have landed on Process Kit if I didn't learn a ton from Audience Ops and Audience Ops came from what I learned from Restaurant Engine and like I wouldn't have landed on those ideas unless I had gone through that that experience.
Conor McCarthy 29:53
Yeah, that is that's great advice there is there's always learning to be had no matter what happens, success or no and it's about building on that. I like that. That's a great place to wrap up. Brian, thank you so, so much for your time and all your wisdom you shared here. I'll include links to all your resources and your podcast in the show notes, of course.
Brian Casel 30:14
Yeah, sounds good Conor. This was fun. Thanks.
