#7 - Howard Gray
Episode #7 - Howard Gray on the importance of continuously iterating value propositions, to decoupling mission from vision
Show Notes
On this episode of The First 10 Podcast, I talk to Howard Gray, entrepener, educator, coach and founder of Wavetable.
Key Points
Relationships tend to be undervalued when it comes to those first conversations
Look closer than you want to
Focus initially on the people who have a similar way of looking at the world
Show Notes
The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick
Your music and People by Derek Sivers
Strategy is your words by Mark Pollard
Alchemy by Rory Sutherland
Contact Details
Wavetable
Twitter
LinkedIn
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Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, promoters, clients, book, thinking, big, company, gigs, podcast, artists, bit, talk, business, customers, selling, events, called, djs, agency, mission
SPEAKERS Conor McCarthy, Howard Gray
Howard Gray 00:00
I'd say look, look close, there will be a blind spot, probably from your recent history. Somebody you already know, somebody you already worked with, a project you did before, an audience that you served once before, who actually would be great for this, but you've sort of skipped them over.
Conor McCarthy 00:17
Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the first 10 podcast where I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers, who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them, and what effect they had in their business, so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. My guest today is Howard great. And we had a lot of fun recording this on I was smiling the entire time. Howard has a really interesting business history, starting off organising parties and fields as a teenager, and starting his own entertainment marketplace, and then pivoting to online education. And he really has seen and done a lot in in multiple fields. And he shares it all here and give some great detail on on the things he's learned along the way. some highlights for me, were going back to two when he started the entertainment marketplace, marketplace business. And he was he was effectively selling to two sides at once. On once idea the promoters and the venues who needed talent. And then on the other side, there were the entertainers such as DJs, who needed the gigs who needed the venues. And he wants some really great knowledge there. And specifically about how to think about who you're approaching as your customers on both sides of that equation. He figured out very early on the constraints were his friend and use them to his advantage. And he tells us all about it here. And we jumped in the second half of the podcast, we'll jump to Howard's latest venture called wave table. And our wave table, his team focus on workshops, accelerator programmes, design sprints, and full learning and development strategies. It's fascinating stuff. As Howard said, it's like a factory for thinking about learning, which I love. in there, he started coaching and consulting. So he really has a big, big bag of skills when it comes to finding first 10 customers. And lucky for us, he was happy to share what he's learned over the years. To notes about this podcast episode, how was answered to my very last question is something I've added to my list of very important things to think about regularly. I won't spoil the surprise, but I think it's a tonne of value to make sure you pay attention to that. And once more. I mentioned a Derrick Silver's book in here, but I totally Mangle the name. I think it's the name of a blog post that he wrote that I gave. The book is called to your music and people. And I'll include it in the show notes because it's great read. Okay, enjoy the show. Hey there first 10 podcast listeners. I'm here today with my friend Howard grey. Howard, first of all, thank you very, very much for taking the time to be with here with us today. And do you want to tell us a little bit about your business story so far, or what you're working on at the moment?
Howard Gray 02:46
Sure. First, it's really nice to be chatting with you. Again, we've had a few conversations. In the past non podcast, they've always been interesting winding journeys into lots of areas, including actually what we're kind of getting into today, funnily enough. So yeah, my business story. I guess it started probably when I was a teenager, I was promoting parties, I got really into electronic music when I was about 1314. And yeah, I started promoting events charging like two pounds, or like, you know, two and a half euros or $3 order to get to get in I was like, you know, selling soft drinks at the bar and stuff like that. So that was like the first the first thing they did. And that kind of evolved into bigger parties, I started running some parties or questionable legality in the woods when I was about 18. Along with that kind of knew what I was up to. I did a few other kind of escapades. But the music thing really stuck. And although I after university in college and stuff, I got like a proper job in advertising, the music thing stock and I was running events. There's quite big events in London as a promoter. I got particularly interested in the kind of business side of it, I guess, not on the talent side, really. So booking DJs and bands as a promoter. But growing these events, we'd often work with agents. Some were great, but others were not so great. And as a as like and then as sort of 1920 year old thinking I could you know, I could do better than them. My friends and I decided that we could start our own agency by booking some of the apps that taking on some of the acts we were booking and saying hey, you should come work with us we could be your agent even though we have no idea what we're doing. No contracts, no connections, nothing. Somehow with that you for the band, and we managed to start this music agency in our student bedroom in 2005. I think it was. And long story short, that grew continued while I was working in advertising and my my observe job after college. And in 2009 in the middle of a recession. I just saw as the recession was about to hit hard. I decided to leave my great full time job I've just been promoted in my agency I decide to leave which is in hindsight madness and When to build this company that has kind of grown by that point into a small office about two or three people, I'd cycle there at lunchtime for my day job when I check in do go there in the evenings as well and works on dates and stuff. But I, one day in January 20 2009, I remember very, very clearly, I showed up at the office one morning and said, Hey, everyone, I'm here. Like, there's like, okay, we know you're here. I said, No, no, I'm here. Like, I'm here, here as in, quit my job. And I'm here. And we have very, very few clients then. And we won't make any money at all. But like that, that's how my kind of first proper entrepreneurial escapade started. And that grew into a reasonably sized company. In the end, I sold it in 2012, to a bigger music company. I worked there for three years, and then went back out on my own in 2015. And since then, I've been doing quite a lot of consulting work with it. And Originally, it was sort of music and entertainment startups, because obviously that was kind of where a lot of them knew me from my background. And then became very interested in education, which is ironic given that I was got suspended from school several times and refused to attend university graduation. That's why I became a teacher instead, education. So I started kind of working doing workshop design, workshop facilitation, I think something that I was really interested in, you know, something that you and I have in common is really interested in kind of helping people figure out what's next or developing themselves. And I became interested in coaching, I realised much too late, I've been doing coaching for a long time running my own company. And even before that, and then I decided to go and do a, like a certification in coaching in 2018. And yeah, now I'm shortly launching or just about to launch depending on whether this episode releases remote just launched a new company that is going to bring all that together, kind of creating interactive programmes and workshops with with companies, and also our own kind of learning programmes focused around everything from workshop creation to entrepreneurial skills and other areas. So yeah, that's like a quick sort of two to three minute tour of my quite weird,
Conor McCarthy 07:06
eclectic. You're very interesting background, I love that kind of background where you start talking about, you know, promoting parties and fields selling, not selling whatever I write off to you're doing something that's very respectable, I guess, working in workshops, and online education stuff. Thanks for that. There's just for a moment. So I definitely want to talk about your current venture, because it's fascinating, especially in terms of the first 10. But when you go back to the music agency, and bringing on those first clients, I mean, that's, that's an experience that not a lot of people would have, is there anything that sticks out from those days? But like, what was the hard part of it bringing them on? or finding them or any of that?
Howard Gray 07:54
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that when we were when we were chatting before, before the episode that that was actually the, the area and the story and the time that came to mind for me, because I think like you touched on, it's not an area where many people have it experience because it just it's sort of nature and barriers to entry and stuff like that. You can't there are apprenticeships and the mailroom is the sort of classic thing and really big, like William Morris, CIA type talent agencies, you go through the mailroom, and then become like the assistant and then you know, the Assistant to the assistant. And then there's some there's some agents who have got literally, assistant number four has their email address. So there are four or five assistants who are nameless, and so there's that there's that route, where you can go through the grind your way up. But if you're not doing that, which is the crazy part of it was not doing that, you have to figure out another way. And he was thinking back to this when I was about 1819, which shows my age of bits, but 2002 three, I was using a lot of internet forums for the kind of music we're into. And so that you know, they look like they feel so so dated. Now I kind of the bulletin PHP bulletin boards and stuff. But there were there were a couple of those that were they were really popular, a lot of music fans are on there a lot promoters are on there. And getting the first kind of clients, the job of the agent is to get the clients gigs. So actually, when you think when you ask me about customers, there were the clients who we were assigning. So these are DJs, for example. And then there's also the promoters who are buying the talent effectively, and we take a percentage. So we're in the marketplace business. So we needed to have both. So our first 10 customers were kind of both sides. So we need we needed to secure clients because without clients we had nothing to sell, so to speak. And then we also needed promoters or buyers. Now some clients will obviously have inbuilt demand, and they've already played at this club or this festival before and so that hopefully you demand that, but oftentimes it's because we were starting out. We were taking on clients who were tiny, they're only like $100 or $200 dollars a gig and we get 10%, we get a tenner. 1020 whatever your currency is, it was pounds to rely on. So 1020 pounds a gig, something like that. And obviously, there's loads of people that are DJing for 200 quid. And so getting traction with them is really hard. So it was a bit of a chicken and egg problem. So the first kind of clients that we we took on, they did have like an in a bit of an inbuilt base. But when it came to finding buyers for the clients, I would actually look through these forums, and no one people's email address wasn't public, but you could message them. And so I could find events in particular cities that were listed in that the events listings. And the way the heuristic I would use was that I looked for events that had good flyer design. And the reason for that is twofold. One, when I was a promoter, my co one of my co promoters like four of us doing it, he was a graphic designer. And so I quickly learned the value of good graphic design. And when I started the agency business, we tried our best to make our website look good. And actually back in 2010, we were doing podcasts were not in other words, so we tried to set ourselves apart by using tech and digital engineers, I did like a digital multimedia degree. So I was quite into all that stuff. And so one of the heuristics I used was, which other promote which promoters of events in different places in Europe had interesting flyer design and artwork, and if they didn't invest it in the artwork, so that okay, they probably like the aesthetic of the event is probably something that they hold in quite high regard and every thinking about it in a slightly different way to some other people. So I would look both that obviously, which promoters have booked similar talent to the talent we had, but also which the promoters who maybe don't have many big names yet, but who are who have got cool artwork. And if they've got cool artwork, they're pretty thinking about the style and the experience of the thing in a different way to most and it pretty much the gig is going to be maybe not necessarily bigger and better. But it'll probably the artist will go back with a feeling of Oh, the the the overall experience felt good, you know, the flyers are good, it probably means the hotels decent, it probably means that they're going to care a bit about the details. So that was one method I use to sort of find the first promoters was the design of their artwork. And actually, it's only thinking about it recently that I can articulate it like this. Because like with many sort of heuristics and hunches, you don't really know you're always doing it at the time. So I think maybe the takeaway from that is, it's a common that I suppose a commonality, because we were very into that. And so we looked at promoters who were sort of thinking the same way, or saw the same thing we did in the listing opportunities to sort of add design to Yes, stuff. So that was that was how one of the ways that I do it, I look to this forum, find artwork that was cool, and then contact the promoters and say, Hey, here's what we're doing. Can we have a conversation?
Conor McCarthy 13:07
That is very smart. There's there's so much in that in that like, you kind of found a little constraint as well, because you're immediately kind of going, right? The if it was at 20, you're kind of saying, right, 80% of these are just people holding parties in fields are the same kind of stuff. Maybe you were doing at a younger age, but the 20% who are investing, who are putting in the time and effort into like a quality event. They for lots of reasons. They're the people you want to talk to, that's a really smart way to do things.
Howard Gray 13:37
Yeah, there's another constraint we had to add. And I think this is important is that there will be a lot of events with great artwork. So the heuristic wouldn't work for, because some of them are like, we're only booking the biggest names because they sell tickets. Yeah. All right. I didn't have time because we were just starting out. And so we'd have to find the both not too big an event. Yeah. So it's not like something that's too well known. So I remember very vividly the first ever show I booked 2005 was in Linz, Austria, which is a you know, it's not Vienna, you know, Austria, some people think about, okay, if you're going to look in Europe, it's gonna be what France, Spain, Germany are the three biggest market. So Austria is more than Germany. And Linksys more than Vienna, so it's a, you know, you go down a couple of orders of magnitude there. So in a smaller sort of secondary city, and also a lot of the stuff we were doing to start with would be like student city, so student towns, where there'd be a lot of students and so they'd be they'd be smaller places. And there was one big event and lens, but we didn't go to them because they just wanted the big the big name that they booked once a month from the UK. Instead, we go with the kind of slightly alternative second second level one because that's that's the place we could get in with First we weren't going to get the big promoted by one of our acts to start with. It would be the the small A promoter who was probably not getting their calls answered by the bigger agents. So there was, again, there's there's almost like a symmetry between us where the big acts wouldn't return our phone calls and the big agents wouldn't return this. So we teamed up.
Conor McCarthy 15:14
Wow, that is a lot that that is so smart and learn from the, from the talent side of things. Was there much selling to be done there? Or were people happy to be picked?
Howard Gray 15:26
Ah, that's a great question. I think both. So it's, it's pretty interesting, it kind of gets to, you know, I think maybe you and I have sort of talked about this in a very different context. But this idea of the the group and social proof and things like that, where, if you see your friends are doing a thing, validate it. And so again, the first few artists was really hard. But people hunt in packs. And in music, they would come around like a particular record label they all record for, or a particular event that they're all played at together, or whatever it would be, it's quite tribal, with a lot of things. And so once one of the tribe that said, I'm doing this, then others would come. But obviously, getting those first few is very, was very challenging. One way we did do it at the beginning, was to do non exclusive. And so what that means is typically, and typically, I'd say almost almost all agents, I know now, they would represent their clients exclusively for a bunch of territories, if not worldwide, at least Europe or North America or something like that. And most artists will typically have like, two to three agents max for the globe. What we do, instead of that was actually we say, we'll do whatever, and we'll do a non exclusive, so you can have other people representing now we realise quickly, that was a really bad idea, because it was like a calendar nightmare. And then you've got they'll get they'll promote or play off the two agents against each other. So you have to have exclusivity in the territory. So the non exclusive thing did work to start with. But it's like a kind of growth hack that tops out really quickly. Like, it doesn't matter. If we're actually trying to do the work. And I provide value, it stops working really quickly. But it was a good, it was one good way in a better way in which I would have done more in hindsight, if I knew was to focus on one territory for international artists. And I learned this much later down the line, when I sold my company to a bigger, bigger company. And I learned this from other guys, there was the way he built his roster, was to say to a big French DJ, a really popular one, I'll just represent you for UK, keep keep your other people forever else, all I want to do is UK, I'll just be really focused on UK and I might only get you two gigs a year. But that's okay, because then I've got your name on my list. And then as soon as I've got your name and my list of all you've got him, I want to talk to you about representing me because I like him. So that would be the other way of doing it. So you could do the non Exclusive OR Miss deliver growth hack, which creates pain, or you can focus specifically on one territory for an international client. That was that was the way that I think I would have done it. If I knew at the time
Conor McCarthy 18:11
to carve up the world. That's that's really I say, and you see, as soon as you see that now online with them. Again, the kind of the weight that some early customers bring, especially in let's say, b2b sales back where absolutely any any half decent software website, they'll have the logos of the people they work with, because that's what the buyers want to see is in where's the trust here? Who you working with? Who your names, you know, if there's no one on there, which you could tell pretty quickly, usually. You're a little bit cagey. I mean, there are gems in there, obviously, but I'm having some early wins really help.
Howard Gray 18:47
Yes, a sliver as well. Right. So like in advertising, for example, there are the agency of record is ran out instead, you know, Nike have got I don't know how many agencies they've got across social Creative Media brand stuff, product design, etc, etc, as tonnes. So a very small agency might have a tiny sliver of the Nike business, but they can still say, hey, Nike or a client was Yeah, very, very same. Yeah. And it's, again, like you said, it's a social proof thing. So yeah, that can be that can be applicable for everything from DJs to branding to b2b software, all kinds of places.
Conor McCarthy 19:22
So that's that was there. And did you find yourself getting better at the the art of attracting either the talent or the or the promoters etc. Back down? Did it get easier over time?
Howard Gray 19:38
I think it must have done. I hope it did. I think so. I think I think I record it took me too long to recognise like with everything with hindsight. No. It took me too long to realise but I did realise that other people were better at it than me. And I think why Why? You and I are both interested in coaching. I think I realised I was I was better at helping The team do the thing. The necessary always doing it myself. But it did. It did get easier. It got easier as I began to actually like kind of give a bit more. I didn't I didn't give enough, I think in a way, but like, we're going with hindsight, I think when I was supporting as much as I could I think things got better. I think one other thing that made it easier was not hiding behind my computer screen. And so I'm, I'm an introvert, I would say overall. And I guess this gets back to like, look at the classic, you know, get out of the building and talk to people. But I think it goes, I think it actually goes beyond that. So the kind of I love Rob Fitzpatrick and his book Mantis really great. I'm sure it's come up on this podcast before. I think there's lots of great stuff in there. But I don't think it maybe covers quite as much as relationships rather than interviews. And I could, I could go and do like customer interviews with potential clients, or promoters or artists, but I think actually building relationships with them would have, I would have done more of that. And when I when I did do that, it's like it worked. And, and everything is a transactional thing of someone's buying a thing from someone. But I think the relationship part, if it didn't, in that in a service business, where that made it easier when I started building relations, I think particularly for me with clients, I felt I always found that I found myself too. And this is another thing I learned when I sold my company and was you know, we got acquired. Remember that the CEO of the company that brought the same job as the agent is to look after the promoter as much as the artist, even though you represent the artist. Yeah. And you are set, you know, selling them. Your job is to look after the buyer. And I think I was says pretty two things in here. One, I was probably too adversarial against the promoter, saying that they were just trying to low in the early days. They're just, they're just trying to lowball us. And Nick, you know, they're difficult to work with yada, yada. And the other thing was that I think I was pretty good at talking to artists. And I think this was like coaching skills I didn't realise I had. And so I think trying to try to surface the goals of the artist and bring them into like the culture of what we were trying to do. I think that's what helped us get more clients was, we were not the SWOT, we were not the kind of big, shiny corporate company, normally the hyper aggressive hyper growth company, we were the artists first digital focus, do you come to the office and hang out and have a cup of tea with us? Yeah. And we got and we go to, we come to all your gigs, which tire me out a lot in the first couple of years. And I think that people seeing that, artists seeing that that helped a lot. And that quickly, mushroom brother, people would talk, artists would talk to their peers, and we would get more clients from that. So I think it's a couple things, I noticed the kind of valuing both both sides of the market. And if you're not even if you're ostensibly on one side, yeah. And then really just being human. And like investing not just in like customer discovery interviews, but actually like building relations with humans. I think that that those are two things I would have definitely done more of Had I known at the time.
Conor McCarthy 23:19
Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Like because you were you went, you kind of stepped into the shoes of the artist. to certain degree, you kind of went Oh, do they want out of this? And maybe not so much with the promoters but they also had these like, yeah, straight up, nuts and bolts, financial, etc. But they also probably had needs love, I want to get promoted, or I want to grow my company or whatever. And there's probably a lot in there that you could have contributed I guess if you were doing the same on both sides. It reminds me that story that chip Conley tells you chuckle he was he was the hotel magnate hotel entrepreneur in the States. He's moved on to different things now. But back when he started his first hotel in Los Angeles, and he built it in a kind of a dodgy part of town. And he was trying to get bands to book rooms because they were coming through all the time playing gigs, and they wouldn't come. And he was trying so hard. And then he had this brainwave one day where he was like, Oh, it's not the artists I need to sell to. It's the managers. It's the people who are actually kind of need the sleep the most people who have work to do, they can't just party all night, and then wake up at noon the next day. Like they really need a good night's sleep. So he started focusing all his marketing on like, Hey, are you are you a tired manager who just needs to get some rest. And all of a sudden, his hotel was full and is full of rock stars? Who do the managers obviously brought along?
Howard Gray 24:42
I love that. I think that's that that gets to like value proposition, right? Like the value prop is complete. It's flipping it completely on its head. So rather than putting all that effort into like, trying to pitch one group instead, you can just talk to the type. The exhausted manager who's like I want a place to sleep on the band completely. Well, great. Yeah, yeah. When I think you brought in a massage therapist, you're right. I remember I think I've heard that story. Yes, important massage massage therapist, because they were always really tense for managing thesebands. That's so smart. I love that.
Conor McCarthy 25:13
Did you ever have any formal sales and marketing training? Or was it all on the job?
Howard Gray 25:20
It was all on the job. I was. I was a producer and advertisings, kind of project manager, but slightly different, but broad broadly the same. And back then, producers were brought into client discussions a bit, but the sale of the business have been done long before, you know, the client had been acquired, or been brought in on like, a retainer or whatever. And so there's never exposed to it. And so no, not Not really. And I think, you know, going back to like college and school and stuff like that, that was never taught. They were not even not even taught, they not even mentioned, of, whether it's selling yourself to get your first job, or selling a product that you've built, or marketing your company or your client stuff. It was never touched on. So no, I never, I never had any, it was all very much kind of learn as I went. And I think a lot of what I learned, I didn't know it was sales or marketing at the time, it was just talking about the thing. Yeah, and I was one thing was that I was using the internet from quite a young age. So obviously, it's been around a long time, but I was on it from sort of dial up. And AOL stuff from the kind of late 90s as a teenager. So I think using the internet, early age got me more confident. I was really shy and awkward as a kid. I said, I'm sometimes but using the internet, I think helped me because it meant as someone who was kind of awkward and introverted, I was able to not hide, I just said hide behind the computer screen a lot. And we were just just a minute ago, but i think that i think that helped me understand, like, get things out in the world without feeling that I was kind of having to expose myself so to speak, so to speak. Yeah, so I didn't have anything No, nothing, nothing formal.
Conor McCarthy 27:14
And Derek Severs CD, baby, etc. He, he just released two books, this year, one of them, I'm gonna get the name wrong. It's called something like your art extends beyond the canvas. That's right. One of his new books is about exactly what you just said about how like, if you're a musician, and he talks about musicians, that's because he is one. And he kind of says, like, it's not enough to just make your music. Like you, you have to be able to, if you want to sustain yourself with your music, you have to go and learn the business of music. And most of his book is full of really smart things to do, if you want to suppose improve your odds of becoming a successful self sustaining musician. And, and again, yeah, a lot of it goes back to things you just said there, like, it's not even mentioned. Often where it's like, you need to put in the hours as much as you're practising and honing your craft, you need to understand things like marketing, and, and a little bit of Finance. And you know, just how to talk with yourself how to sell yourself without feeling weird about it.
Howard Gray 28:21
Yeah, absolutely. I don't even remember how I talked about what we did back then. And so it probably wasn't very, it probably wasn't compelling. Every time was very different. Yeah, we wouldn't be different every time. And I think the I would think, and I probably should ask some people about this, who knew who knew me back then? I would imagine that it was probably lacking confidence, or it was tipping into inadvertent arrogance, which is actually the same, which is probably the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, it was almost over overcompensating for the lack of confidence by coming off as in overly arrogant or not, or not addressing what they were interested in, and what they needed. And just sort of talking about ourselves and kind of babbling it. And I think that's a that's a trap that a lot of us fall into is either low confidence or inadvertent arrogance, which end up sort of becoming the, you know, route route back to the same thing.
Conor McCarthy 29:19
So good. And I'm just watched at the time, and I really want to talk about your current project projects as well. So maybe we could jump forward in time and talk about Yeah, first time customers in, in something you're currently working on. It can be something really shiny and new, that maybe you're still finding the customers for, or a recent recent workshop or whatever you like.
Howard Gray 29:41
Yeah, well, it's good. Because there's a few projects so I could take that in a few different ways. I'm, I'm gonna go Let's go. Let's go shine in you. So shiny is the newest, so I'm gonna move into shiny and new and also add a bit of grey to my hair as we just moved back. You know, we just moved to the present day from years before so The thing that I am, I'm building a couple of things. But the main vessel that I am building at the moment is called wave table. And it's a production company slash creative studio, they're sort of thinking about learning, more like a sort of Hollywood studio or a creative agency word. So what what if you took that kind of entertainment style, storytelling, and principles of coaching and active learning and things like that, and brought them together into something very interactive and immersive and exploratory, for people to, to step into. And so working with brands and IP owners, and sometimes even education institutions to sort of reimagine what learning programmes look like, predominately online, but hopefully, in person soon enough, or being well. And when it when it comes to like the first 10 know where I'm in that right now. And actually, I'm going to take some time to share something that, that someone said to me earlier this week, so I was having a chat with somebody who is in the right lane for what we do. So we've made a decision that we offer what we do to marketers ahead of learning and development people within companies that sales that are learning that you're going to learn in development. But instead we see the value proposition being as much in building a brand and building a firm's marketing capability as it is in learning, which is again, it's a counterintuitive, but they're going to separate us a little bit. And what this person was speaking to said to me, and she's a really capable marketer, so it's great to get her wisdom on this was that often, we often think of like, vision and mission and values and things like that for companies. And she said that actually, there's a lot of companies that have a vision, but their vision and the sorry, they have a vision, but their mission is not yet defined. And so they're trapped. And so this was as the inverse of I who not has been to, with the kind of work that we're doing is very easy for us to talk to companies that have got a vision, and what we think is a mission that actually they don't have one. And so it's very important that we have companies that their both their mission and their vision defined clearly. Because they if they don't, then, because we're more focused on kind of content and experience design, suddenly, we get into a lot of trouble where, okay, the company's mission is actually really unclear. And suddenly, we're going to get into a whole world of Oh, no, where they're having a kind of existential crisis, maybe we ended up accidentally uncovering one for them, where they don't actually know what they're doing. And we have to rebuild the whole thing. And so I thought that was, I thought that was a very interesting, kind of different thing to think about in that vision and mission are not necessarily the same thing. And so looking at a company Not, not via the amount of money they've raised, or how many employees they've got, but how clear is their mission, and how clear the principles they're built on. Because it's actually surprising how many companies don't have that, you know, in other businesses, it may be looking for exactly that. If you're a branding agency or a consultancy, you might be looking for companies that don't have that mission define that's perfect for you. But for us, she said you should be looking at where the vision and the mission of both really clear and looking at companies that have that ahead of the money raised, you know, I came at it from, I think we're looking at companies that have maybe done a series a funding round, and they've got 50 employees, and yada, yada. And she stopped me in my tracks that no, you want to look at the mission driven part and whether the mission is strong first, and then do all the other stuff after that. So I thought that was a really interesting way of sort of thinking about that,
Conor McCarthy 33:35
that is a really smart way to think about it. And is also kind of gives you permission, I suppose to really try and understand this business, instead of looking at their their their funding what they have in the bank. Well, but what would you say? How would you define vision and mission in this scenario?
Howard Gray 33:54
Oh, goodness, I think I'm still I think I'm still figuring it out every year, because I'm still figuring it out. I think I know, I could probably Bumble my way through it. But I think I think it's on I think it's we're on a mission to. And I think if they can articulate that clearly. And there's some pillars underneath. And I'm sure you could talk to a few sort of brand strategist who would have a much better kind of like, way of thinking about this. But I think I think the vision is what we see in the world. And then the mission is what we're doing to get to get there. And so it's a bit more kind of path and purposeful. That's a bit more intentional map and map and territory almost. Yeah, maybe it's a bit yeah, maybe it's a little bit more that it's more, it's more, yeah, it's more towards that kind of way of thinking. And I think often there's a gap that's hard to see. And that's why we're just having this conversation now. And we're like, okay, we're not you know, what is what exactly is the difference between the two? I think for me, I'm writing that right now of interrogating and investigating. Like when I'm thinking about a potential client or customer What am I looking for in that, you know, in this like mission vision thing? What am I? What are the things that are telling me it's solid, one of the things that are telling me maybe it's not so solid, or there's confusion there. So it's actually quite an interesting, real time exploration exploration for me right now, is digging into that, to kind of ascertain, is this a good? Are they a good fit for what we do. And it's quite a new shirt, kind of like area, there's other there's other factors I'm thinking about in terms of type, the type of job roles they have the size that they are the, the industry, they're in the kind of content, they're producing that kind of stuff. But I found that one person's feedback from just this week, actually, I found quite interesting, and not something I thought about before.
Conor McCarthy 35:43
So yeah, that's a really smart way to go about it. There's, so you're going very deep on individual companies, let's say, you know, you're really putting in the work, analyse their, their values, their mission, their vision, job roles, like you're spending time researching, before you make a decision to either go or no go or put a pin in this.
Howard Gray 36:08
Yeah, as much as I possibly can, it can be hard, it'd be hard to dig beyond a website. And then I'm really just spending time talking to people within those companies, wherever I can, you know, if I can, if I can get an introduction through someone I already know, then great. I don't I don't find cold outreach, particularly fruitful. I think even for informational interview kind of stuff it can be, can be very hit or miss, you know, people, especially now people are going to change the computer all day, and I've got plenty going on. And I kind of, there's so much noise in the world, we're all kind of drowning a bit. So I think there is an element of connection and trust and introductory stuff that does, people are going to gravitate to more. So yeah, it's more that that research bit first and then talking to people within that organisation who I think this is very important, who I have a good sense will be looking at the world in a similar way that we do. And that only to look at it the same way and fairly, rather look at it slightly differently. But if they're looking the opposite way, then it's not, it's not going to work for them. Because we're coming we're coming up the space, we're operating in with a slightly left field oblique kind of approach. And it's not something that's that's easy to compare against, it doesn't it doesn't have a clear genre, there's there is a sort of x for y pitch for it. But it's not. It doesn't fit an existing slot. And so therefore, people who are looking for something just to fit in the existing slots are probably not going to find that with us. And so it's not it, we're to be quite mindful of who we speak to. So look, I'm very much think about who are the people that are sort of looking at the world in a similar way to how I see it. And so that, again, is part of the work because like the company never work. And then there's the people in the company and who are the Who are the people that are looking at the world in a similar way that we are.
Conor McCarthy 38:04
That's again, it's it's very contrarians to thrower but it's very interesting, oblique ways to come up the idea of, you know, who do I really want to serve here? And what is their worldview? Because you are looking for someone slightly different in how they think about things?
Howard Gray 38:21
Yeah, for sure. I think their work their worldview, that is super interesting. And it's hard. It's hard to sort of dig into it without you know, you meet you need to talk to people. And opening up a conversation sometimes can be can be tough, because it just feels like you're just Hey, you just pitching me. So it is trying to fight I think trying to find some sort of commonality and things they've done or things they're interested in, or things they've talked about. Yeah, or things they've written about or podcasts, they've been on things like that. I think that those are good, sort of, you don't see their entire worldview, maybe but you can least get an inkling of Oh, okay, they It feels like they've got a strong perspective on this. Or they seem to be talking about this theme quite a bit. And so I think anchoring off one of those things, that seems to be a good sort of indicator for me.
Conor McCarthy 39:14
Yeah. And you have any thoughts on how on the actual conversations, you know, so let's say you you get in front of someone that you feel is a good match? Do you? Do you have a structured way to have a conversation? Do you do it more kind of like a pitch? Do you mom do a mom test on it and kind of talk about everything but the idea What do you have any rules of thumb?
Howard Gray 39:36
You know why I kind of I wouldn't go towards vacillate, but I sort of go between all three of those to a degree. So with a with a business, a product in market, as it were a service in market. I don't personally go with the kind of mom test. Don't talk about the idea at all, but because I think then it's I think maybe for the recipient as it were, there's a thing of do you actually know what you're doing? Or do you actually have a thing? And I think you do, you do need a level of confidence in the thing. Like, there's a reason I'm building this as if there's a level of confidence and dimension confidence before, it's important to have. Having said that, especially in the early stages, there's eliciting needs, and then matching the thing to those needs. And that I think something I've learned in the last six months particularly, has been language, not learn not learn language, I'm so I can I can I have a good grasp of language? Do you the use of Thank you, the use of language? So you know, semantic language? I think there's a book that I think one of your previous guests mentioned, called strategy is your words. And quite literally, it is, I mean, I think I think like sales is your words, as well. So I found that in some of the conversations, I'll use one line of inquiry or one way of talking about the thing, and it doesn't hear at all, and then I'll change to words, and it lands way better. And so I think a lot of the work has just been in cycling through various different ways of talking about either the problem space, or the way we're coming at it, or the product itself, or the benefit there, or whatever. And just sort of cycling through a few different versions of each of those parts. And then there's kind of like five or six different components there right from the problem space to like the the type of people that we found to be most into it. So like how we talk about the benefits for somebody, all that kind of thing. And I just found even changing one word for another can have a hugely different result and impact on somebody. And so I really, and it's, and to be clear, like copywriting and wordsmithing. And stretch, strategic work is hard. I've definitely learned that in the last six months. That's not underestimated. It's hard, but it is not bad. And it's really valuable are really important. So I found, I found and so with the going back to the the question about like, taking on those conversations, I think it's thinking about the words I'm going to use also being okay, with changing up the words, if I need to. So having a couple of other Oh, I'll try this one on. It's almost like it is quite like trying something out. But why don't we try this on? And suddenly, oh, yeah, that fits, I get that I see that. And some people will something all and other people something else will end. And then over time, there starts to be a synthesis of Okay, so if i, this one seems to have this way of talking about it seems to hit a lot of people or this example of what if company x did why people seem to forget that. And so it's once a once a kind of critical mass of people talking to grasping it, and especially when they mirror it back. And especially when they get excited, they start coming up with their own ideas. That's the that's when you know it's working, is when you just let let them go and they start coming up with solutions for you. And then he then I can then take those words that they're telling me and put them into the words I add them or weave them into the words I was using. So I think the the word smithing bit and utilising different kind of phrases and ways of talking about the thing. That's been something that I found, I found to be really helpful.
Conor McCarthy 43:41
That's it. Thank you for saying that. That is really, it's such an important and very deep part of the process like college is copywriting, but just kind of, you know, making words work for you is a really big thing. There's a classic quote, I think there's an American politician said it, he said, and what you say is not what they hear. Which is very, it's so obvious. It's so simple, but at all stages, no matter what you're pitching or selling or describing, like someone is going to hear it in a way you can't imagine. And they're bringing so much more to it. And there's great there's a book by George Lakoff called metaphors we live by and he talks a lot about this the power of language and he's the kind of he's like a frank luntz who kind of character but he really interesting ideas around how to frame your own ideas and how to use language to your advantage because yeah, copy copies according to copies is hard. You know, when you read it, is you read good copy almost don't notice it. But you know by copy cuz you're talking through it, you know. And so there's lots of there's probably 50 books you could recommend. on any of the topics we've talked about so far, but more specifically, are there any books that have helped you understand people better?
Howard Gray 45:12
Yeah, I like the you've sort of framed it that way. Ya know, if I go, you know, thinking back I wish I did spend more time but understanding psychology, like, I didn't even know what it was when I was younger, like ironic, like, if you said the word psychology, I really couldn't explain what you know, give me a good definition of it. So I think that's something that I think it's well worth a lot of people spending some time exploring notion of his particular book. I can recommend other podcasts unfortunately, kind of other podcasts are available other than first 10 although I you know, be careful where you spend your time you should be coming back the first time wherever possible, but there is an episode of the knowledge project by Shane Parrish, where he interviews a guy called Rory Sutherland, who is vice chairman at Ogilvy advertising agency. He's written three sevens written a couple of books. One is called alchemy, which I'm about halfway through at the moment, which is which is about counterintuitive ideas, which I think is, again, helps you understand people a lot but on the park on this podcast, I think he really brings up a lot of interesting points about a rat basically irrational behaviour. And so I think I like his thinking on it, because it it aligns with the psychology part, but he's not a psychologist. He's an advertising and brand guy. And obviously, what we're talking about is customers and sales and marketing. So I think the way that Rory Sutherland kind of bridges that gap between psychology but also I'm someone who is responsible for motivating and moving people towards buying products and services, I think he brings it all together really well. So his book alchemy is a very good read. I think if you're more of a podcaster than a podcast listener than his, particularly Shane Parrish into, there's also one, he was on podcast called invest like the best, which is mainly for investors. But he was a guest on that one. And again, some really interesting stories and anecdotes and insights about the kind of irrational and counterintuitive behaviours of people and going back to the quote, I'm going to mangle it now, what was the American politics? Its is not what you say, its what you hear, what you say is over there. Exactly. So, so that that whole concept of were irrational, or we feel that something's happened, but it hasn't or we underestimate our bias towards thinking that we are rational beings, and we're not. I think, getting an understanding of that. I think Rory Sutherland does a really good job of making that actionable and relevant into into the world of like brands and sales and marketing. So that those be a closer couple of my tips.
Conor McCarthy 47:51
Okay. Rory Sutherland. Yeah, I second that I think you described really well is his approach. And Okay, last question. What would you say to someone starting out to find their first 10 customers?
Howard Gray 48:04
Oh, my goodness. So someone find their first 10? I think so this summit has been again, speaking of bias, this might be my recency bias, this is something that because it's something that's been on my mind recently, is, look closer than you want to. And I was talking, I've been talking with a small group. So we're thinking about spinning up a new project, at the moment, and, and kind of going back and forth on the area that we want to focus on to the audience, I can be all the sort of theme or subject matter. And this has happened to me twice recently, is there's stuff that's right in front of you, that you don't realise is there, and people talk about blind spots a lot? I think there's blind spots that are like not necessarily at the side, the side of your vision, but almost like, right, is that right under your nose? So I think looking closer than you want to so even if you think I won't, but I want to go and XL to Hollywood celebrities, or I want to go and get involved in conservation or what whatever. Look closer, and almost look closer than you want to because we often always want to look at the the perfect customer or the big brand, or the whatever or the thing you know, the person who's just been a guest on this podcast, or whatever. And then looking closer than you even look closer, but look closer than you want to because sometimes the ones that made me think, Oh, vashi is not that interesting. I think actually, there is something there's always something interesting there. And I think that's where we can often kind of trip ourselves over is looking too far out and too far out and up too quickly. And so, yeah, I'd say I'd say look, look close, there will be a blind spot, probably from your recent history. Somebody you already know somebody already work with a project you did before an audience that you serve once before who actually would be great for this but you've sort of skipped them over So that would be that. And that's something that I walked. You know, I've been doing companies and entrepreneurial stuff for quite a long time. I still walk into that problem all the time I did twice in the last couple of weeks. So I feel like looking close to new ones would be my that would be my suggestion for someone that's starting to find a first 10
Conor McCarthy 50:16
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that and for elaborating a little bit. That's a great place to wrap up. There is so much more we could talk about I would love to know about your, your parties in fields when you're both that's, that's another story. Another story, different podcasts. And really, thank you so much for your time and sharing all your wisdom here on the podcast with the listeners.
Howard Gray 50:39
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Conor McCarthy 50:42
And that's a wrap. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, and that there was something in there that was actionable and insightful for your business. Do check out the show notes for more information on what we discussed, as well as ways to contact my guest today. Helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast, please do get in touch at www.first10podcast.com, or on Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.
