#5 - Rick Kitagawa

Episode #5 - Rick Kitagawa on curiosity, and avoiding assumptions in conversation with your customers

Show Notes

On this episode of The First 10 Podcast, I talk to Rick Kitagawa,  Founder of Kaiju Coaching, and Co-Founder of The Spotlight Trust.

Key Points

1. Be curious about people

2. If you are solving a real problem for people, you don't need a website

3. Don't make assumptions about your customers

Show Notes
Ramit Sethi
Brene Brown (website)
Daring Greatly - Brene Brown
Dare To Lead - Brene Brown
The Charisma Myth - Olivia Fox Cabane

Contact Details
https://rickkitagawa.com/
https://spotlighttrust.com/
https://kaijucoaching.com/
https://twitter.com/RickKitagawa

- If you like what you hear on this podcast, make sure and sign up to get regular updates here. Also follow me on Twitter here

Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, business, customers, screen printing, shirts, rick, ventures, printing, colour, stationery store, sales, building, screenprint, enjoys, totally, conversation, company, treated, helping, work

SPEAKERS Conor McCarthy, Rick Kitagawa

Conor McCarthy  00:00

Hello, hello there, everyone. And welcome to the first time podcast where I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers, who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them, and what effect they had on their business so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. My guest today is Rick Kanagawa. Rick is a good friend. And I've coached with Rick many times on set guns, Alton VA and Kimball workshops. Rick's business history goes a long way back. He originally had a stationery store. It was his first first venture. And then he moved into co founding a gallery, workspace and screen printing workshop. We talked a lot about the screen printing business, mostly because Rick was the kind of sales guy if you like. And he did in a really interesting way. Like he sat with customers and found out their problems. He listened. He approached with curiosity. And sometimes it meant that they didn't end up working with Rick if he if he found out that he couldn't deliver what they needed. So there's a lot of humility in the conversation as well. And a lot of leading with curiosity, I think is the way that Rick would put us. And moving on, he started, he started a few ventures since but when it comes to, to the first 10 customers, he has some interesting points about how to approach the customer conversations, such as, how do I want to be treated? That's his frame of mind going into a conversation with a potential customer? How do I want to be treated? And not making assumptions is a key part of customer conversation. We talk a little bit about that. And I just be curious about people. Rick is a genuinely curious guy. He's achieved a lot in life because of that. He works on some really interesting projects. And I'll put the links in the show notes to what he's currently doing. So worth checking out. And yeah, so everybody enjoy today's conversation with Ricky Gallup. Hey, there first 10 podcast listeners. I'm here today with Rick Kanagawa. Rick, do you want to tell us a little bit about your business story so far, and what you're working on right now?

Rick Kitagawa  01:51

Totally. Thank you so much for having me, Connor. Yeah, my name is Rick Kitagawa and I'm currently based in Pasadena, California. And I actually started out my first business was a stationary company, which was doomed to fail, because I didn't really know anything about business. And that promptly closed very quickly. And but then I was privileged to get the chance to co found a gallery artists workspace as well as a screen printing have or support both financially as well as operationally, I was able to really build the servicing company into something that was sustainable, we were able to hire one employee. And we really, and I actually did that full time for about four years before I ended up pivoting out towards education and teaching. And my business partner who ran the silkscreen printing company, still runs it today with a new partner, and they are super successful, and are doing great things in the city of San Francisco.

Conor McCarthy  03:07

Wow. Okay, your event, you've had numerous things. But my connection went a bit fuzzy there. But that's the company a gallery workspace and screen printing. That's pretty cool. And before that, stationary, stationary startup. Indeed, I love it. I love it. And so and I know, I know you're doing different things now because I said, You pivoted to education and teaching. And it was there anything you could remember from those early ventures about what your first 10 customers and the first people that kind of said, Hey, this is cool, I want to be a part of this in some way.

Rick Kitagawa  03:43

Totally. I'll focus on the the screen printing business, because that's sort of what's still going and it's obviously the most successful, the gallery, we ended up closing just because we could keep it going. But we just there was a lot of kind of different owner things and people moving away and decided not to continue on. So we ended up selling that. But with the screen printing company, it was our very first customer was sort of one that we I think sort of inherited in a way that we were actually not really thinking about doing a screen printing business or my business partner was just kind of getting started. And then we had someone come up and was like, Oh, we need you to print shirts. And they just kind of it was just a fortuitous thing. And that client ended up sort of growing in a lot of ways where they started ordering more shirts, and that gave us the capital to kind of upgrade our equipment and then we could start offering a few more different products I should be able to say and really, those first couple customers. We've really got three more word of mouth, fortunately, because at the time, and I don't necessarily want to disparage anyone or or I don't know how things have changed, but at the time, there were very few screen printing companies that would service small orders. So by small orders, I mean like 20 shirts, 24 shirts, 36 shirts, most of the screen printing companies would do it, but their bread and butter was with, you know, doing swag for Silicon Valley. So it would be, oh, they get this contract with Google to produce, you know, 20,000 t shirts or something like that, right. So their volume, they're like, Oh, we kind of don't care about you. Unless you're bringing, you know, you're doing over 1000 pieces, or 500 pieces or something. And screen printing, it is a process that's very setup intensive, and the actual printing then becomes really easy. So that sort of where that mindset comes from is that like, it's a lot of labour and time to set up a new design, like a new job, but then the actual printing of it actually works really well. So that first client we had, it was easy, because they had one design. And they would just order tonnes of shirts, like, you know, 500 shirts every week from us, which was a nice reoccurring revenue to get to really get good at initial capital that we could grow the business. And kind of our differentiating factor was we were just like, we are down to help people. And even if it like, even, we would still say no to some people who were like, We want to do a 10 colour screen print of one shirt, and we're like, this is gonna cost us like $4,000. Like, there's not, it's not worth anybody's time, or your budget, like, you just need to go get iron on and you'll be happy, you know. But, you know, so there's a, I think that the differentiator was that we were willing to do the education of why this is unfeasible for people, because a lot of people don't understand the the actual technical processors like Oh, just take an image and put it on a T shirt. And we would go through with everyone. You know, like, what is this process? Why is what you're asking for? Maybe it doesn't make sense with your budget or with what you're encases? Like the you know, going back to a lot of Seth Godin his work, which we both are very familiar with. But the the who's it for? What's it for question, and really working with the customers to suss out what are their needs? And what is the best solution, even whether it's with us or not with us. And we've turned over, you know, we've had one client who is like, I need like, 700 shirts in a few days. And we just, we've literally could not fulfil that. And we're like, you should go talk to these other people. Go to the big companies, because we can't do that for you. And, you know, we don't want to, you know, try to do this and mess up the order, and then everybody's unhappy, right. And so what we sort of got known for were was really just solid customer service for everybody. And that sort of spread the word of mouth. And we're, you know, I don't say, I wouldn't say we were radically underpricing, anything, but you know, we're affordable. We had reasonable pricing. And I think that customer service piece was really what set us apart. And people will just tell their friends. And they'd be like, Oh, yeah, these are our screen printing guys, right? We're like the cool guys, quote, unquote, of the screen printing world that are cool to talk to you. Like, you could have a beer with us and hang out. And that's really, I think, what one a lot of those initial customers over, especially being that we were brand new, we barely had a website. I think we just had like a Google form for a website, to be honest. And again, it was super rudimentary. But yeah, we would meet people in person, we'd walk through the project with them, I'd go through the technical explanation of like, oh, maybe you should think about this. Or if we did it this way, this could save you money. And I think really putting the customer first was not something that a lot of people were used to when getting screenprint quotes, and that I think helped us get those first couple customers that then went and told a lot of other people and their peers and other CEOs and marketing managers, and that sort of what started kind of the company rolling

Conor McCarthy  09:35

that is awesome. I love that. That's probably something that doesn't feature in a lot of startup business plans. You might say this kind of, you know, this the product is the marketing and and I think it's only heard recently but and stories about Zappos how initially Tony Shea was like, we're gonna double down on customer service, like to the point of if someone calls our customer helpline is just for the chat. We're just Going to talk to them about anything doesn't even have to be about shoes, which was their main business. So they got really well known for customer service. And, and, and to your point like you became the cool guys like you cannot be that kind of word of mouth the cool guys for a screen printing is incredible, like the social proof in that is, is worth so much. Total totally. Yeah, it's really cool.

Rick Kitagawa  10:22

Yeah, thank you. I mean, you know, we're very proud to say that, you know, we were able to do our first year of, you know, hundreds of six figures revenue with out any paid marketing. So we we never did any paid ads, we barely had a social media thing. Everything was really just people working with us and being like, Oh, these guys are super cool. You know, they're affordable, their product is good. Why? Like, why wouldn't we go with them? Right. And so and we really found ourselves a niche, we weren't trying to compete with like the cube big shops that have been there for, you know, 3040 years and did screenprint posters for like the Fillmore right, or like these huge San Francisco institutions. You know, we let them play that game. And we decided, oh, there's all these people who want, you know, who are starting a startup and they want, you know, to put their brand on a on a hoodie, right? Or they're working for even an employee resource group for like, we've done some work with Facebook, we've been worked with Apple with gap. where, you know, they're like, well, we were really locked into a che a product chain for scale, right, for 10,000 units for 50,000 for, you know, with gaps, like, you know, half a million ships, right. But when they were like, We need 24 shirts for our team for this outing, we were the people that, you know, you come and talk to you. And so we became sort of this small to mid range, you know, up to, you know, three 400 500 pieces, where you could come and, and really talk to someone who got kind of the idea. And like we would even often, you know, like I, my business partner, Matt really kind of handled the operations and a lot of the initial client outreach, and I with my visual art background, and I was actually the head printer. And so I would be the one helping them with the design and actually printing the shirts for them. And so I think getting to talk with, you know, someone who was actually doing the work, and I explained, I'm like, Oh, you know, we could do this, but I think what you want actually requires this and, and like, I can hear, here's a sample, and I can show you what that kind of looks like, and this one cost more, but I think that's what you want, you know, and or maybe this one costs less. And I think that's actually what you want, should I just do that? And I think really putting that, you know, once again, that customer service, putting the customer first and building those relationships, which is what really allowed us to take off?

Conor McCarthy  13:02

Oh, that's Yeah, that is so good. I mean, it's, again, it's so kind of white glove, you know, this idea of white glove service, you know, it's kind of high end concierge like to have the designer and the printer sit with you, and go through the decisions and bring an expertise that you more than likely don't have the design expertise, but also the actual manufacturing expertise to kind of go, here's what's possible, here's what I think you mean. And and to work with them that closely is when you really can't do that at scale, obviously. So it's kind of great that you guess you learned an awful lot in those early days doing it that close with the customer, I'm taking on the customer feedback as it went as well.

Rick Kitagawa  13:39

Totally, I mean, it was, I mean, to be honest, I was not very good. In the beginning, like I was very fortunate that our first client, um, you know, hit is kind of ideal target audience. We're not artists buying shirts, it was people who are who are not traditionally the type to focus on the screen printing quality of the T shirts that they buy. And so for whatever reason, he hit it off, and I got to do kind of by 10,000 hours practising on I, you know, I hate to say it, but it was, you know, I say there are bad shirts, obviously. But looking at what I was technically able to do when I started the company versus what I could do, what I exited, was vastly different. Like in the beginning. Part of it was equipment, we just didn't have the most modern stuff. And like I remember there was the first six colour t shirt design I ever printed. It took me about for a variety of reasons, took me about six hours to set up to just get it set up. And then the printing took me 40 minutes. Oh wow. And Wow, that was the beginning. And now it's like, oh yeah, I could set up a six colour job, you know, probably the same that I mean, it doesn't take me that much longer than me setting up a, like a three or four colour job. But it's more about thinking about the design and thinking about the equipment and knowing all the nuances because it's, uh, you know, it's a very physical chemical processes going on, it's not like, I hit a button, it prints it on the shirt, right? It's like, I literally have to make sure all the different colours register and line up with each other and that, and now understanding like opacities of inks, different colours, different garments, knowing how to set that job up properly, to make that image still come out good. You know, that's, that's the experience. But yeah, that I think the learning was invaluable, invaluable. But having people who were also taking the right jobs, I think went into this is letting people know, it's like, Yo, I, we're not super high tech here. Honestly, like, we could probably do this, but you probably should go to a different shop right now. Until we got to the point where like, you know, like, it would be a constant thing of like, oh, how are you feeling? Do you think we can do this? And that was something that I really appreciate, Matt for was he was he would often be like, Can we do this to me? Because, you know, he's more on the business side. And I had all of the screen printing background. And so. And to clarify, I had a lot of screen printing on paper back, which is significantly a different process and then printed on garments. And so that's sort of like that, I was like, Yeah, I can I can do screen printing well, but then translating that to garments is a completely different beast. And the process is actually very different in terms of how you're laying on colours and things like that. So that's what that kind of steep learning curve was talking about. But yeah, getting people to have to do the reps on things that I knew I could do really help me kind of build the trust in myself that I could start experimenting, and kind of pushing the limits of what I could do.

Conor McCarthy  17:15

Listen to everything, you're saying, I'm shivering inside, because I don't have a design bone in my body. So I'm just like, the toilet of designing and rattle on paper or fabric, just the whole thing. It's so beyond me.

Rick Kitagawa  17:30

Your shoes came out great, though.

Conor McCarthy  17:35

Thanks. And jumping ahead a little bit. So like, you learned an awful lot in the early days by being very close, very close to the business to the actual making of the product very close to the customers, you're sitting with them you're designing, you're helping them along. Are you referring them elsewhere? And like in the last couple of years, as you said, You've pivoted more into into different businesses? How has it been, like taking all everything you learned into these new ventures, especially obviously, as it relates to the first customers in your new ventures?

Rick Kitagawa  18:06

Sure, um, I think it's a lot of a lot of the same. I think that part of running a successful business is also understanding what you're good at, and what you're not so great at. And so, I the currently the consulting company, that I co founded with my co founder is Lisa lamber. She is, has been great in terms about building some sales processes, some more robust kind of cold outreach and things like that. And I've sort of I'm very much the in person, person, in person person, I'm very much the person who enjoys talking to people enjoys being on camera enjoys having the sales calls, and being able to do podcast interviews, and sort of I'm the more extroverted of the two of us. And so that's been really helpful is kind of leveraging our own strengths in different ways. And so I think that's been really helpful for us and kind of knowing that I'm much better in person, or that's kind of where I shine. I don't want to say I'm necessarily better, but that's my sweet spot and building relationships and having conversations with people, I think that sort of what we've taken forward from those from my initial ventures. And same thing with my private coaching practice. It's really just been talking to people. Not I'm not very good at a hard sell, because I've always even when I was working retail many years ago, um, you know, I found that even though I was doing things sort of the non traditional way, like I really didn't like a lot of the for, like, the corporate bosses like, Oh, you have to do this, you have to upsell this. And I kind of wouldn't do a lot of that unless my manager was watching. But I was still one of the highest, you know, grossing sales people at our store, I was probably the highest grossing salesperson at our store, because I wasn't doing that, because I was building up relationships with these customers that had come in for years. And they don't, they don't, you know, they don't want to necessarily be upsold. But they also really trust me. And part of that trust came from saying, actually, I know you're really excited about this new thing that's like, really expensive that we could sell you. However, it's actually not very good. These other things are way cheaper, they were more work, but I think you'll get a better result, I think you should go with him. And doing that over years, get him to come back again. And again, and again. And I might lose out on. You know, like, if you're looking at, it was over a week, I'm probably maybe not doing great. But if you look at sales over a year, over two years, over three years, those relationships you build, by focusing on, on really providing value to people as opposed to just trying to get a sale out of them. And treating them like human beings, I think really pays off in the long run.

Conor McCarthy  21:23

I love that that is as good. I was gonna ask if you had any kind of formal sales and marketing training? I mean, you've had, it seems, it seems you've had a tonne on the job, huh?

Rick Kitagawa  21:34

Yeah, I, you know, I actually don't have I've had zero actual sales and marketing kind of classes or training like that. It's all just been sort of, really me keeping in mind, like, what do you what do you how do I like to be treated? Right? Like when I'm going into a restaurant, if when I'm going to, you know, whatever, right, by any, in any sort of store, sort of how am I treated? And then it sort of, that's kind of where I started. And then I saw that there was people who want to be treated differently than me. And then understanding them like, okay, so I can't make assumptions about anybody. So I just need to kind of talk to them and see how it goes. And then kind of adjust accordingly to how they want to be treated, how they want to be interacted with, right? Some people want a lot of attention, like, Oh, you know, like, what are you working on? Let me let me walk you through what we have. And then we show you what to do. And other people just want to be like, I just want to browse know, our sales and it's like, great, I just want to let you know, I'm here, if you have any questions, but no pressure, like enjoy your time. Right. And and and i think that also maybe came from me selling my own artwork at like comic conventions and things like that is you're really just standing at this booth behind a table. And there's all these people walking by, some people stop and look, some people don't. And some people want you to greet them, other people get freaked out if you make eye contact. And it's I think it's just understanding and not making assumptions about people. And just listening to them and seeing what their needs are. And oftentimes, that I think really pays off in the long term.

Conor McCarthy  23:19

Totally, I mean, that is a that has to be a superpower to be able to edit. That's a very vivid example, like standing at a booth at a comic convention, you're trying to sell your art and just be able to kind of figure out I don't say how to approach it, I want to make it sound like a kind of a sleazy salesy thing, but just being able to kind of engage with someone and be open to who they might be, like, open to their worldview right now in this in this convention or in this, whatever and to be able to kind of, I suppose, adjust your approach accordingly. And that's a really, yeah, that has to be a superpower. I love that.

Rick Kitagawa  23:56

Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it's really I like to think of it as just being curious about people. And just kind of, because I think when you're curious about them, you're not, you can't really have any preconceived notions, you're just kind of like, Oh, interesting. You said this, tell me more like, like, why is this interesting to your Why do you need this? Or what are your needs? And as a customer service agent, or as someone running a business, who is, you know, helping people out? It's really like, Okay, well, you know, we can do this really well, we can actually do this. Well, but I, and I think maybe that goes towards building trust with people rapidly is this willingness to be upfront about the good and the bad? Because I think maybe that's something I didn't touch upon before, but I would. I never feel like I don't obviously lead with what's wrong. But I think I need to give people an honest perspective of what they're buying and In what cases this works well, and in which cases it doesn't. Because sometimes like, you know, like I worked in a, going back to the stationery business, I actually worked in stationery stores for about eight years. While I was going to going back to art school, and you know, there's like these different kinds of machines that help cut stencils and stuff like that, I'm kind of like, these are really great and very for very specific things. And people would come, I'm like, like, that's cool that you want to buy this. What are you trying to do? And then they tell me, I'd be like, okay, yeah, no, this is actually perfect for you. But watch out this, like, make sure you're doing this, I would probably recommend these other things, because you're gonna burn through them really quickly. And that there'd be other times where I'm like, This won't do what you want it to do. Like, I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to save you 300 bucks, because this is not what you actually want at all. And this is Yeah, it's actually cheaper to just buy the other premade things or like to hire us to do it. And that would actually save you probably in the long run, did like buying this machine tried to do it yourself. And

Conor McCarthy  26:09

you'll see, even years later, you're still sitting with the customer and kind of say, you know, what, what do you what do you really hoping to achieve here and then pointing them in the right direction? And that right direction might be out of your stationery shop? Yeah, yeah, totally, totally fine.

Rick Kitagawa  26:25

Yeah, I've definitely worked with people doing wedding invitations. And sometimes I'm kind of like, I think what you want is not any of this. And that's fine. And I would say go check out this other brand, because they do this really well. And I think that's what we're looking for.

Conor McCarthy  26:43

Hmm. And outside of business or kind of tactical context, where would you go? What books or resources have helped you the most to understand people?

Rick Kitagawa  26:58

Hmm. I think Dr. Rene Browns work I daring greatly. I'm dare to lead. I think those kind of books have really helped. I think that's it? That's actually a great question. I haven't thought about that as much because interesting, interestingly enough, I feel like that skill has been something that I think is kind of innately. I don't wanna say innately because it means I don't want to make it seem like these aren't skills that you can develop and learn. But I think that's kind of been where I've naturally always gone towards. And so I haven't To be honest, look too much into it. Some another thing to think about, though, in terms of say building trust, or, or coming off as personable and have been able to have conversations is Olivia Fox Kabbalah is the charisma myth. That's been a really fantastic book, because it kind of goes into how charisma can be learned is a skill. Not necessarily, oh, this person so charismatic, and you're like, no, this is something anyone can develop. If you once again, like any other skill really work at it. Hmm.

Conor McCarthy  28:23

That's a good I've never heard of that book. That sounds fascinating. I love that. And what would you say to someone who is starting out, they've got a new venture, they're coming to you. They're saying, Rick, I've got this idea. I think it's brilliant. I'm going to go and get my first 10 customers tomorrow, what would you say to them?

Rick Kitagawa  28:39

I would say, go do it. Go Go talk to those first 10 people, because the the biggest advice I usually give to people who are interested in starting their own business, but haven't done it yet, is that there is a temptation to do what repeat C key from the I will teach you to be rich and growth lab, New York Times bestselling guy, something I loved, that I learned from him very early on is the idea about playing business, and playing businesses where you're like, Okay, I'm gonna make a website, I'm going to get my business cards, like I'm gonna get, like, you know, like, my Google Voice number all set up with my voicemail and I'm getting, like, have all these, you know, like, You're, you're doing all this cool stuff, which is, you know, that can give you my social media handles where I'm gonna get my trademark and copyright and like, all this other stuff, and it's kind of like, yo, go and test your idea, see if people will give you money for it. Because if you are actively solving a problem that people have, you don't need a fancy website, right? Because, like, I know this for a fact is that people always ask, do you have a website? And embarrassingly, I'm like, No, just email us. And we'll get you some t shirts. And people would write like, like if you build up enough trust if you show them that you can Do this, then you can literally say, yo, send me $500 in a PayPal account. And I'll get you some shirts in two weeks.

Conor McCarthy  30:10

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, that speaks volumes, doesn't it? It's kind of when you have when you have a reputation or a character, I suppose that is so the work is full of integrity and you're full of integrity, then yeah, you're right. You don't need all the fancy stuff playing business. That's, that's a great way to punish. Yeah, that's great. That's really good advice. Em, I think we might leave it there. Because I think that's great advice for anyone starting out with their first 10. Thank you very much. This was it was a bit of a whirlwind tour through all your various projects. And I always want to talk to you about what you're doing, because it's always so interesting. And, but we won't have time this time. Maybe we'll do it again. So thank you very, very much, Rick, for taking the time to be here this.

Rick Kitagawa  30:53

Awesome. Thank you, Conor for having me. It's been a pleasure as always.

Conor McCarthy  30:57

And that's a wrap. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, and that there was something in there that was actionable and insightful for your business. Do check out the show notes for more information on what we discussed, as well as ways to contact my guest today. Helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast, please do get in touch at www.first10podcast.com, or on Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.