#10 - Diana Chen
Episode #10 - Diana Chen on personal branding, trust and having great conversations with new friends
Show Notes
On this episode of The First 10 Podcast, I talk to Diana Chen. She is the Head of Content Strategy at Content Allies, a podcast host at Startup Happy Hour, a travel blogger at MVMT Blog and is also an entrepreneur, full-stack web developer, and former attorney.
Key Points
"Go slower and build relationships first…focus on the long term"
"The reasons why I think the way I do or react to certain things in certain ways has also helped me to better understand other people, and why other people think they way they do, and act the way they do"
"The most important thing you can do is listen"
Show Notes
Content Allies
Bernadette Jiwa's guide to writing your About Page
Brene Brown
Contact Details
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianadchen/
https://www.dianadchen.com/
https://www.startuphappyhourpodcast.com/
https://twitter.com/ddwchen
— If you like what you hear on this podcast, make sure and sign up to get regular updates here. Also follow me on Twitter here
Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, work, podcast, business, customers, page, guests, sales, conversations, social proof, startup, website, twitter, lawyers, person, company, learn, blog, founder, hear
SPEAKERS Conor McCarthy, Diana Chen
Diana Chen 00:00
The reasons why I maybe think the way I do or that I react to certain things in certain ways, has helped me to also better understand other people, and why other people think the way they do or act the way they do and helped. It's really helped me to empathise with other people more.
Conor McCarthy 00:20
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the first 10 podcast where I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them, and what effect they had on their business, so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. My guest today is Diana Chen. Diana is a bit of a chameleon. She's the head of content strategy at content allies. She's a podcast host at the startup happy hour podcast. She's a travel blogger at the movement blog. And it's also an entrepreneur, full stack web developer and former attorney. She does a lot. And this is a really great podcast, we talked about the difficulties that Anna had in creating a marketplace startup for lawyers back in 2012. She will be talking about the incredible advantages that doing personal development work can bring and some of the ways to create social proof and simple, very simple personal branding tips that anyone can take and start doing immediately. That includes working the story you're bringing to the world. Dan went deep on storytelling, the power of storytelling, including the story that people will tell themselves about you when they find your work. On a meta level, we talked about how powerful podcasting can be when it comes to developing relationships with people you want to work with, and have a simple and well thought out a back page can provide an immense amount of trust for your business. This is the last episode of the first season. And I really love talking with Diana here. She's done an awful lot and has some really great perspectives on finding your first 10 customers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Hey there first 10 podcast listeners. I'm here today with Diana Chen. Thank you so so much for being here today. And I want to tell us a little bit about your talk about your business journey so far, or what you're working on right now. It's up to you.
Diana Chen 02:03
Um, yeah. So first of all, thank you so much for having me on Connor. It's an honour to be here. Quick, quickly about what I'm working on right now, that I think is a shorter story. So I can start with that before diving back into my business journey. But right now I am the head of content strategy at content allies. It's a content marketing agency. And we just help a lot of beats b2b tech startups manage their content marketing. So our newest focus is actually on podcasts very on brand for what we're doing here. But, you know, obviously, in this day and age, it seems like everybody in their mom has a podcast, but it's actually we've found it to be a really good strategy for businesses to start their own podcasts and use it as a sales enablement and networking channel. So a little bit different than what most people think about podcasts, you know, most people are focused on how many downloads do you have? How many followers do you have that sort of top of mind for most people, but I think the way that we're using podcasts for our clients is, if you think you know, you get a new guest on every week for your podcast. So that's, you know, 50 guests per year, say you, you make those connections, you get each of those guests to introduce you to three other people, that's an additional 150. So it's 200 new people that you're meeting every year. And these are people that are targeted people for your industry, your niche, and that can serve as warm leads for sales calls. So essentially, you know, you can think of it as that's 200 sales calls a year with warm leads. In that case, it's like, who cares about how many downloads you're getting, as long as you're getting downloads from the same from the the, you know, the important group of people as according to what your goals are. That's all that really matters. So, a different way of looking at podcasting,
Conor McCarthy 03:54
That is so interesting. I mean, like, you know, I'm all about that the first 10 customers, but one of the things that's always in the back of my head is is the idea of kind of don't do things or do things that don't scale. So I think there's probably a feeling out there that Yeah, my podcast needs to have 10s of 1000s of downloads, and it needs to reach an audience of x. And it needs to be backed up maybe with some kind of a blog presence. And it's a whole ecosystem in itself. But I love this idea of it's almost going one to one and yeah, you're right in a year, you can make 150 really relationship focused calls, but they're their conversations, their proper discussions.
Diana Chen 04:33
Right, right. Yeah, they're their proper discussions, their conversations, their, you know, it's like talking to a friend, you know, and if that happens to end in some sort of sales involved thing, like they, they want to buy your product, they want to buy your service, they want to work with you to whatever extent then great, that's a great result that comes from it.
Conor McCarthy 04:54
Hmm. So, okay, so you've had I mean, again, your your communion, you've had so many different experiences of finding your first 10 customers, but on this particular business, what's been different about this approach versus maybe other ones?
Diana Chen 05:12
Yeah, I think this one has definitely been the easiest. And I think maybe part of that is, like we just said, you know, we don't have to frame these calls in the context of a sales call. These are just conversations with new friends. And when we frame it like that, it's not really hard to get people on to talk about their stories, talk about their businesses, I think, to a certain extent, everybody loves talking about themselves, right. So to give someone a platform to talk about themselves and talk about what they're working on. I think a lot of people welcome that very openly. And so with this experience, I started my podcast back in the summer, so it's only been around for about half a year. And I was really worried before I started, you know, how am I going to convince people to come on my podcast when it's brand new? It's not even on Apple or Spotify? Yeah, I have no no proof whatsoever. I have no proof that it even exists. Obviously, I don't have any social proof. How am I going to convince people to come on. And I started with just tapping into my own network and the network of my friends. And I ended up getting a few really solid guests on from my own network. And then those guests introduced me to others in their network that I then brought on as guests. And honestly, it it snowballed almost out of control pretty quickly to the point where I just had to say, I had to close my calendar off and be like, Okay, well, I'm booked, like three months out. So I'm just gonna stop booking for a minute now, and get caught up on this. And then, you know, start reaching out to people again in a few months, because I'm overloaded. So this is honestly, this has been the easiest, first 10 customers, and I can speak to previous experiences that weren't so easy. But this is serious has been very smooth and very positive experience overall.
Conor McCarthy 07:05
Wow. Okay. you've, you've given the nod, what have been some not so smooth experiences of finding your first 10 customers?
Diana Chen 07:13
Right, so going back to my very first business venture of starting my own company, it was back in, I think it was 2012. I was in law school at the time. And I, you know, I knew pretty early on in law school that I, that probably wasn't the path for me, but I decided to finish it out anyway. And to make my time in law school more enjoyable, I thought I would do something I enjoyed, which is, you know, create my own startup. So basically, I created a startup that was an online marketplace for people for startups and small businesses to find affordable legal help. And then on the flip side, for attorneys to get some freelance legal work, and, you know, it was a tough market back at that time for lawyers coming out of school. And so there were a lot of young lawyers who are out of work, but obviously had the skills that, that were marketable. out there. So. So that was my first foray. And it was, I learned so much from the experience, I ended up shutting the company down. But I learned a lot about fundraising, I learned a lot about, you know, what a founder and CEO of a company has to do, I learned a lot about forming a team. And I learned a lot about marketing, you know, because obviously, first and foremost, I needed to get people on my platform, and you need to get those first 10 customers. And coming from the background that I did, which was a political science, undergrad background, and then law school, nothing super business related. It was learn as you go a lot of learning as you go and kind of learn by trial and error.
Conor McCarthy 08:57
In building a marketplace, both both sides at once. Do you remember any of the the conversations where you can bet if you went?
Diana Chen 09:10
Okay, I learned a lot about my approach or my you know, what I'm bringing to these conversations? Yeah. So you know, the two sides of it, the one side, I needed to get lawyers to sign up on the platform. And then the other side, I needed to get startups and small businesses to sign up. It was almost an easier sell to the startups and small businesses, even though they would be the paying customers. And so you'd think maybe they'd be the harder side to sell. I really struggled with selling to lawyers. And I think part of that was because the idea that I had in the company that I was trying to form, I think it wasn't the right time. I think it was too early for the industry to accept what I was trying to put out there. And you know, like the legal profession is one of the most traditional and old fashioned professions out there. There. And so even though this online marketplace concept might not seem novel, or exciting or super advanced to you or me, it does to you know, people in the legal profession. This was back in 2012, so almost a decade ago. So it was really hard to convince them to sign on, there was a lot of pushback from the legal side, you know, with, well, who's gonna manage my legal liability insurance? You know, what, what's like, what's the law, I bet a liability like on this a lot of doors liability was thrown around too many times. I never want to hear it again. Obviously, like, that's what lawyers think about. So if you're gonna be working with lawyers in your business, then this is these are things that you have to take into consideration. And these are push, you know, objections that you have to anticipate and know how to respond to. So that yeah, that that was it was the most challenging getting lawyers to sign up.
Conor McCarthy 10:57
Yeah, despite the fact that, like, you were in the you were in that field, you were working in the same discipline.
Diana Chen 11:03
Yeah, I was in the field. And, you know, from my perspective, I'm providing you with the platform to get more business and to make more money, right. So you shouldn't be the one fighting me.
Conor McCarthy 11:13
So yeah, it's one of those fascinating things of like, Surely this is a great deal for them. But still, they're coming back with objections, which is like, this is, as you know, this is great feedback, you know, to be able to kind of listen to the objections go, oh, what I think you want is not what you want. And isn't exactly
Diana Chen 11:31
yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. So that taught me a lot, because the feedback I got was the complete opposite from what I anticipated getting.
Conor McCarthy 11:41
Hmm. Fascinating. Did you? Did you ever have any formal sales or marketing experience? Or is it all on the job?
Diana Chen 11:49
It was pretty much all on the job. You know, back in college, I worked at our university call centre, where I called a University alumni and asked for donations. So I guess that's like sort. I mean, it's more fundraising than sales, but did a lot of cold calling in that regard. But otherwise, no, not really. I know, it was all learn as you go
Conor McCarthy 12:10
learn as you go. Is there any? Yeah, I think it's obviously the best way to learn, I think. Because you can read a book and that's great. But then when you're sitting in front of a prospective client, it's a different story. Are there any sales tips or marketing tactics that you would keep in your back pocket for for situations where you're talking to a first hand customer?
Diana Chen 12:32
Yeah, so I mean, full disclosure, I'm not a salesperson. And I never have been, but I do have my own views on how I would approach sales. And this, I mean, if you have sales, people listening, they could be like, they'd be like, This girl has no idea what she's talking about. But this is just my own philosophy. I like an approach where you sort of go a little slower, and you build that relationship first. So I think being more focused on the relationship building from the get go is more important than coming in hard with a sell. And then once you build that thing, during the course of building that relationship, you can really learn and analyse whether that person is actually an ideal customer for you or not. You know, so like I mentioned earlier with this podcast strategy that I have of bringing guests on, who then convert into warm leads for sales calls. That's a very case by case basis. This isn't how I treat every single guest that comes onto my podcast. From you know, the the most important thing is I have guests on my podcast, because I think they're interesting, and I wanted to hear their story. And I want to talk to them through the course of that if we get to talking and I'm like, well, you're, you're somebody I would love to work with, like, I love your personality, I love your business, I love all of that. And I would be honoured to work with you, then I start to, you know, move into that conversation if they're open to it. But I think that relationship building is key. And I think during that process, you really have to listen, and you really have to eyes and think about like whether that's somebody that you even want to work with, and that you can actually bring value to their business into their life. Hmm,
Conor McCarthy 14:20
yeah, deciding for yourself. If this is someone I want to work with, that's a brave decision. If you say, maybe not, because, you know, if you're, if you're bootstrapping, let's say, and you're, you know, you're trying to, to bring in some money as you go. And saying no to potential income is tough, but in the long run, it's probably worth it.
Diana Chen 14:41
Yeah, I think that's a big lesson I've learned over time, too, is to focus more on the long term than the short term. And I think that's really hard for founders because I think every startup founder is impulsive and impatient to some degree, or else he probably wouldn't have started this started your own company and gone out on a limb like that. And so for somebody who's a bit impulsive and pretty impatient, it's really hard to, you know, not go after the thing that's right in front of you and try to get things done and, you know, see some level of productivity, versus working towards a long term goal where you don't necessarily see results on a day to day basis, but you just know that what you're doing is going to be good for you in the long term.
Conor McCarthy 15:30
Hmm. I love that. And are there any, any books or videos or resources that you would recommend, or actually, that have helped you gain an understanding of people? Mm hmm.
Diana Chen 15:44
I think what's helped me with that the most is doing personal development work on myself is getting to understand myself more, I'll be the first to admit that I am probably not the most naturally self aware person, like that's not a skill that comes super naturally to me, like it does some people, it's something I have to work towards. So you know, in the last, I would say, probably starting in two or three years ago, is when I really started doing a lot more personal development work and getting to understand myself and the, the reasons why I maybe think the way I do or that I react to certain things, in certain ways, has helped me to also like, better understand other people, and why other people think the way they do or act the way they do and helped. It's it's really helps me to empathise with other people more and really hear where they're coming from and understand their position and, and be able to approach them from lose instead of from my shoes.
Conor McCarthy 16:55
Oh, that's so important. That's really interesting. I don't think anyone has gone, as mentioned personal development as as a thing that they've invested in, even though I guess everyone does it to some degree, but you've definitely made it a part of your self development, if you like.
Diana Chen 17:12
Yeah. So I guess to answer your question about the books, like one author, I really like for self development is Bernie Brown. I just love all of her writing, and then get yourself a therapist, if you don't already have one, you know, I mean, I'm serious. I think it's still a taboo topic. For some reason, mental health in general is and I don't think it should be at all, I think it's, it's a really important conversation for founders, especially because founders tend to be Workaholics. And they tend to be people that can get lost in the job and maybe lose sight of some other things in their lives.
Conor McCarthy 17:47
Yeah, that's so important. And as well, I think in order to put this not in, even in a sales context, but in, in any relationship, you can tell when someone isn't at ease with themselves. And it brings a new dynamic to the country, every conversation, every interaction you have. But you can tell but you know, people who are, who know themselves, and who are very comfortable being themselves, and that always tends to be a much nicer dynamic. So the suppose the upside of putting in this work is it's very hard to measure, but it's there, it's definitely there.
Diana Chen 18:22
It's Yeah, it's a very big intangible, but yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. And I think when you know yourself, and you feel comfortable with yourself that comfort and that confidence shows to so you know, there may not be a direct link to, Oh, is this a skill that's going to help you with sales calls and help you grow your business? But that indirect link, I think is very much present. Hmm,
Conor McCarthy 18:46
yeah, I agree. And have you ever been in somebody else's first 10 customers?
Diana Chen 18:55
You know, that's a good question. I was thinking about that. And I can't think of a concrete example. To have, you know, just because I've been in the startup world for so long, I've heard so many new ideas. And I'm sort of like, there are definitely times when I'm like, okay, what's your social proof? You know, let me check out your social media pages. See how many followers you've got on Twitter, see if you're legit, but there are other ideas. I've heard that I'm like, sold right off the bat. And I'm like, I'm a fan. I don't care if you have zero. I don't care if you have zero customers, zero fans, like I'm a fan I'm in. Yeah, I would think I would think the answer to that would be definitely yes. I just can't think of a specific example. Right? Yeah.
Conor McCarthy 19:37
Yeah. I'm trying to think of one of products or services where Yeah, I've heard it kind of I guess that that's why hasn't not not existed before this. And the the social proof, I wouldn't be the same, like it's just a because it's so easy now to go online and find out so much about everybody. And it's really useful, and to be able to do that, and I think probably worth remembering that even going out and finding their first 10. But those people, those potential customers will do the same about you. So how do you appear online? Like what literally, when they type your name into Google? What's the first thing that comes up when they go on Twitter and LinkedIn, etc? Do you have any? Do you have any recommendations there? Like, how would you improve your social proof?
Diana Chen 20:24
Yeah, I think the first step is to be on social platforms, right to have a presence. So that's step one, I think everybody, if you're, especially if you're a founder, I think you should have not only your business website, but I think you need a personal website, just whatever your name is. So Conor McCarthy calm, you know, I, and that's where you kind of have, you know, somebody that wants to Google Well, Conor McCarthy, like who is this guy, they can land on your personal site, and it has your professional things, maybe it has a few words about your hobbies, and your who you are as a person, outside of the business. And then it's got all your social links, so have a presence on LinkedIn, Twitter, you know, depending on your business, Twitter is really big in the tech space, if that's the space you're in, you should probably have a presence on Twitter. Instagram isn't super helpful for b2b. But if you're in the b2c space, Instagram, I think is a very useful tool. LinkedIn, of course, and then make sure that you have some sort of clear branding, and that that branding is consistent across your website and all of your social pages. And I'm sure none of this is like new or mind blowing for people. But I think it's also something that like, a lot of people know, they just don't take the time to actually like, audit their own social presence and analyse it and see, you know, to I actually have a consistent brand, like, does this make sense for people, if somebody who didn't know me googled me and landed on my website, and then saw my Instagram page? And then my Twitter page? Would they be like, this looks like three different people? Or what they'd be like, Oh, okay. Like, the more pages I look at, the more I under this person is,
Conor McCarthy 22:06
that's super important that really interesting as well, I think I still meet a lot of people who think having a good brand means having a logo. And what would you say? What's a Yeah, how would you describe having a good brand?
Diana Chen 22:20
Yeah, I think having a good brand means definitely not, you don't need to have your own logo, especially in the case that I just mentioned with having your own, you know, your personal website like that's, that doesn't need to be, you don't need to come up with some like creative logo, like a tree of you like nature, like mountains, or, you know, like, you can just stick with your name, that's fine. I think it means having consistent fonts and colours across the board. And that has to also make sense, right? So if you are it, services profession, you probably don't want a neon pink colouring on your website, because that's not the kind of vibe that you're trying to convey. You're trying to convey professionalism, not necessarily the really like fun, edgy, exciting kind of brand. So you have to think about like, Who are you as a person? Are you a super outgoing, bubbly, out there kind of person, or are you maybe a little more reserved, and more calm and collected, have a personality and you want to find colours, and fonts that match that so that when people go to your website, they go to your pages, they get a sense of who you are before even reading any of your content that you posted. And then from the content side, of course, you want that to reflect who you are, as well. So you want to keep the content consistent. And I don't just mean you know, like post about the like one topic on all your platforms forever and ever. You can post about whatever you want, you can have a medium page that you jot down your own personal thoughts that aren't business related. I think that's totally fine. What I mean by keeping your content and consistent is more keeping your voice consistent across your content so that when I read, you know whether I read your LinkedIn post, or I read a medium blog that you wrote on a totally unrelated topic, or I read a Twitter post, I'm like, Okay, yeah, like this is Connor, like I get I get who he is, you know, and even if I've never spoken to you before, I can kind of imagine what you would sound like and what it would be like speaking with you if I were to speak with you in person.
Conor McCarthy 24:28
Mm hmm. I love that. Yeah, it's, it feels like one of those intangible things. But there's definitely as you've just laid out there, there are steps you can take to improve the consistency and the look and feel because yeah, there's there's people who come across online who have amazing branding, and yet it's not a logo, you're totally correct. But it's just this feeling of, Oh, I know this person. And you obviously you don't, but you see their work and, and maybe something in their work matches the way you are in the world. And that's really what you're going for.
Diana Chen 24:55
Yeah, and I think another thing I'll add in there too, is I think another big part of branding. Storytelling, you know, along the same lines of getting what somebody fibres is you want to know their story. I think in this day and age, people are not only concerned with what a company is about, but they want to know who's the founder of that company? And like, what's, what's their story? What inspired you to start this company? Like, what gave you this idea? Is there a story behind it? What are you trying to accomplish? What are your mission? And what's your mission and vision, and things like that? I think people really care about that. And they want that human component behind corporate entities, I think that you know, and maybe 10, even 10 years ago, like people didn't care about as much.
Conor McCarthy 25:39
Yeah, that's, that's fascinating, because I think even 10 years ago, if you are, let's say, a freelancer, you know, freelancing, you're often just you're buying from the person. So you want to know who is this person that I'm going to be giving my money to for service in return. But more and more, I think, at brands in a generic sense of brands also are paying a lot more attention to how they come across. Online. I think Bernadette jiwa has a great blog post, I'll put it in the show notes about the importance of your about page. And it's a fascinating read, because it's the kind of neglected page often, yeah, it's the back end of the website. But she says, it's, it's probably a place that people go second, once they land, they kind of go, oh, who is this person? And they'll go to the web page. And if they like what they see there, then they might go back and look deeper into your offering or whatever you're, you're you're putting out there.
Diana Chen 26:28
Yeah, for sure. And I think that is something that's changed, you know, even more recently than the last 10 years. I remember when I started my travel blog back in 2016. That was the about page was for sure an afterthought. It was our last priority. You know, we, we figured, if you're going on a travel blog, you're going there to read about places to travel to or travel tips, or, you know, whatever the case may be, you don't care about the about page, like who cares, like who these people are, you just want tips for yourself. Like, that's what everybody's after. But now, more recently, I find myself you know, even when I go to a travel blog, it doesn't matter what kind of website I go to, it can be a tech company, it can be a travel blog, it can be a personal page, the first thing I go to is the about section, because I want to know, like, what, what that what the story is behind that company or person or brand. And when I go to a company page, you know, say like, I hear about this cool company, and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to Google them, check them out. And then there's no about the company or there's no team page. It just like, I don't know, it makes me think a certain way about the company like, Ah, you know, it makes me i think i think what it is, is it makes me lose that trust value that otherwise could have gained had they had an about page or a team page.
Conor McCarthy 27:52
Yeah, that's that's it, you lose trust? I would be? Yes. I've seen those sites recently as well, where you can look for information, there's nothing there. And you're like, Where did this come from? who built this? And immediately you kind of go, I don't care as much. I'm gonna move on. Yeah,
Diana Chen 28:07
yeah, exactly.
Conor McCarthy 28:08
Interesting. And, as a final question, what would you say to someone just starting out to find their first 10 customers,
Diana Chen 28:16
I would say the most important thing you can do is listen, when you go out there and have those conversations, as you're trying to get your first 10 customers, the most important thing you can do is listen. So maybe spend five minutes telling them about what you're trying to what you're selling your product or your service, spend five minutes doing that and spend the remaining 55 minutes out of your hour call listening to them. Because that's how you're going to not only be able to ultimately get them as a customer. But that's how you're going to be able to get way more than just your first 10 customers is by listening to those initial people and analysing what you can be doing differently and learning from those conversations.
Conor McCarthy 29:03
That is the perfect way to wrap up this podcast. Thank you for saying that, that thank you so much for for coming on and taking the time and for sharing all this hardware on one wisdom.
Diana Chen 29:13
Of course. Thank you so much, Conor for having me on. I'm really honoured that you asked me to come on your podcast.
Conor McCarthy 29:18
Absolutely. Thanks a million
Diana Chen 29:21
Thank you Have a good one.
Conor McCarthy 29:24
And that's a wrap. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, and that there was something in there that was actionable and insightful for your business. Do check out the show notes for more information on what we discussed, as well as ways to contact my guest today. Helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast, please do get in touch at www.first10podcast.com, or on Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.
