Episode #4 - Adam Thomas on making small hypotheses, and experimenting.

Show Notes

On this episode of The First 10 Podcast, I talk to Adam Thomas, "Product Person" (also known as "The Honorable Adam Thomas" :) )

Key Points

1. "Find ten people. Ten people who trust you/respect you/need you/listen to you…
   Those ten people need what you have to sell, or want it. And if they love it, you win." - Seth Godin

2. Understand the questions your customers ask

3. "Make a hypothesis, and build on it. Make it small. Experiment."

Show Notes
Amy Hoy Stacking the Bricks, Sales Safari

A Testament of Hope - Martin Luther King

This is Marketing - Seth Godin

Never split the difference - Chris Voss

 Never Eat Alone - Keith Ferazzi

Thinking in Bets - Annie Duke

Contact Details
https://www.linkedin.com/in/theadamthomas/

https://twitter.com/TheHonorableAT

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHonorableAT

TW/LI/Youtube/Website, and get his email too!

Email: adam@theadamthomas.com

- If you like what you hear on this podcast, make sure and sign up to get regular updates here. Also follow me on Twitter here

Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, customers, understand, business, find, thinking, problem, worldview, important, called, writing, building, solve, impactful, talk, idea, question, figure, books, approaching

SPEAKERS Conor McCarthy, Adam Thomas

Conor McCarthy  00:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first 10 podcast where I interview Business Builders on their first 10 customers, who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them, and what effect they had on their business, so that you can learn what worked and what didn't. My guest today is my friend, Adam Thomas. And Adam is a really interesting guy. He definitely check out the links in the show notes. There's tonnes of stuff there, including his personal links, as well as links to some of the books and resources we talk about. Adam, the conversation with Adam was great. And we one of the first things he said was the first 10 customers are sacred. And I mean, that's, that's the whole belief behind this show. So it was really great to hear him talk about how to treat those first customers, or one of the interesting things he said there was, was really paying attention to what questions those first 10 customers themselves, ask, you know, figuring out who they are, where did they go? Why did they go there, you know, what their worldview is, we dive into all that stuff, which is super important when you're when you're starting off and trying to understand your customer better. So enjoy the show, as I said, lots of links in the show notes to Adams social media and to the various projects and places that he is online, definitely check him out on YouTube. He's great. And yet enjoy the show everyone. Hey, there first time listeners. I'm here today with Adam Thomas. Adam, how you doing? Do you want to tell us a little bit about your business story so far, and what you're working on right now?

Adam Thomas  01:29

Sure. So my business story so far, just the introduction to me. I think I launched my first business when I was like 10, selling candy. Just kind of the standard intro or origin story for most entrepreneurs, I guess that my first kind of real business with this startup called the gamer CBO, about 15 years ago. And from there, I've either worked as a consultant, helping startup founders figure things out or had the pleasure of being a startup founder myself, my current place of business, what I am doing now is a coaching practice called approaching one where I am building something that we're really looking to help those in the product management space that are moving from the individual contributor level to the leadership level, and all the changes that happen with them. I'm trying to really focus on making that first year a lot easier for these young executives trying to trying to figure out how to do the job without burning out.

Conor McCarthy  02:43

Wow, awesome. That is a great title approaching one. It's like that like that a lot. And so, with with this podcast, of course, we're talking about the first 10 customers of a new venture. So you're more than welcome to pick something you previously worked on. Even when you returned running that candy stand, you can go right back then. Or you can talk about approaching one anything you like. But yeah, tell us about how you approach finding the first 10 customers?

Adam Thomas  03:12

Well, both of us are kind of set Golden Knights. Right. And there's always that that Tilton people process that he he talks about, you share it to 10 people and no one shares it. And what do you actually have? Right now? where I met with with approaching one, right is in the middle of a soft March and trying to understand who are the first 10 people to ask? Right? So what that process looks like for me, is starting to find the channels in which a lot of these folks my potential well, first, I have to figure out who my customer is right and based on that intro, and as you can tell, like I know, I'm looking for, which is a product person that is either at the senior or lead level, or that just started becoming a director in the last year or so that is looking to understand that ship. Right. The first part is understanding who I'm actually trying to serve, right. And then from there, what I'm doing right now in the soft launch phase of approaching one is trying to get on as many stages and platforms as possible to see if my message resonates. And looking for I like to aim at that first in customer thing. I treat it very sacred. And what I like to do before finding those first time customers is really trying to understand the problem that I want to solve for them. Where do our interests align? So in the spirit of that, doing a lot of podcasts like this one or Doing keynotes around product managers talking to product managers understand what questions they asked along with my own experience, bringing that all into understand who those first 10 people aren't. So I can aim and go right for them.

Conor McCarthy  05:19

Wow, there's so much of what you just said, I'm taking notes. And that's it. Okay, that's really interesting. So one of the things that I'll start with there is you, you are getting very specific on the who, which is, of course, the right thing to do. How did you learn to do that?

Adam Thomas  05:39

A lot of trial and error? Yes, yes. Yes. I, I think, you know, talking about that first business, right? Selling candy is a lot easier. Going to an elementary school, or middle school or high school, or, you know, kids love candy, it's not hard to sell candy to children, right. Um, I really found that I really got some chops, in this regard when launching my first startup. And as much as I thought that people love video games, as much as I thought like, this is awesome. We have a perspective, right, we're going to be that these young kids that are focusing on video games is gonna be well written, like no one cared, right? And that no one cared period for the first, like, week is like crushing. It's like, oh, we'll figure it out next week. And it turns into a month in terms of six months, and you got to start figuring out, right, like, we're not positioning this correctly. Like, we're not really speaking to the folks that want to hear from us. Well, because one, we don't know who they are. And two, we don't know where they go. Right. And like, understanding who these people are, and, you know, from that getting to understand where they go, is definitely the way to start understanding if you're actually trying to solve the right problem for them. Right. And the key thing about business is, it is very fair, when it comes to that, if you're not solving a problem to someone, they are not interested in dealing with the most fun for most of us, yes. And, you know, we all don't want to deal with our utility companies, you know, we're kind of forced to, but for the rest of us, we have to live in this space where we have to figure out a service to provide for our potential customers. Hmm.

Conor McCarthy  07:43

I love that. So well said and figuring out where they want to go. And I've tried to do this in the past myself, and do have a process for doing that. And I, you can even get tactical idea sit down a piece of paper, or do you know, how do you kind of research your proposition? I guess?

Adam Thomas  08:07

That's that's a rich question. And there's so many different ways that I like to do this. One of the things I really enjoy, one of the frameworks that I really enjoy, comes from a woman in any way. And it's called the blueprint. Amy hoy wrote about this, you know, it's funny, you ever have a thing that you really like? And you can't you reference it all the time, but you can't quite remember the name. And yeah, you can't use the title on the webpage. But you know, what's in the webpage? That's 100%? Yes, she currently runs this thing called stacking the bricks, which is, right, it's a fantastic, fantastic service, but really, her concept of in terms of understanding who this customer is, requires you to one understand who they like, it requires you to talk to people or sit there and listen to people. Her method is finding a subreddit or a or a Facebook group or you know, some sort of public square right she calls this your watering hole right there watering hole your customers potential water. Because even though you might not know what your customer once, right, like you might not know what they are you have a general idea as to who they are. And your job in this research process is to hone that idea so that you can find out who those first 10 are going to be right? You want to raise your level of success, right? Because that's generally what all this is about, right? You want to raise that hit rate from 0.00001 to get it to, like, you know, 1% 2% 3%, right, you're moving in the right direction in order to make that happen. sale, and then hopefully, you know, bring that number up to where it needs to be to make a sustainable business. So understanding and sitting in those watering holes, and really learning the language that they use, what problems they seem to bring up, who they go to, in terms of like solving those problems can give you a leg up into understanding, you know, what their context is, what is their worldview? To speak back to that MBA speak? We both know so well, right? What is their worldview right in front of that worldview? You can start to piece together who are the important people in this sphere, right, and then you're able to see if you can get on their radar, right?

Conor McCarthy  10:45

Hmm. That's really, I love that idea of the watering hole. And you kind of referenced it even earlier, in a way when you said that, you know, what questions are people asking? Which is a great way to have a suppose to help figure out that worldview? How does? How does that work? Because I think a lot of people might maybe gloss over things, reading between the lines, or maybe something more obvious. How do you? How do you do that?

Adam Thomas  11:15

Well, first, I want to say that the term that I'm thinking of is called any voice sale, Sales Safari, Safari copywriting.

Conor McCarthy  11:25

We got it. We got it. We got it.

Adam Thomas  11:29

So write your question is how to hone in?

Conor McCarthy  11:33

Yes. So you mentioned you know, what questions are people? Or your potential customers asking? Right? And so if you're in one of these watering holes, is it as obvious as people are saying certain phrases or using certain words? Or are you kind of reading between the lines and kind of going, I think they need this?

Adam Thomas  11:53

I think people tend to overthink, right? And there's a trap into overeating into the line in between the lines, right? This this idea that we're smarter than we're smarter than the market, we figured it out, you have this special sauce? I'm not quite right. But one of the lessons that I've always learned through research, whether it's research for a product, or feature, whether it's me starting in the business, whatever the research is, is that I often almost always go into the research thinking one thing and leaving it understanding another, right? Every time I investigate or sit in a space or grab context, I realise just how much I don't know. So for folks that are jumping into these watering holes and thinking, hey, I need to read I can read between the lines. No, not yet. Right? I think it's a seduction, it's assignment, that the idea is like, look for what's obvious, right? There's gonna be things that are very obvious that people need to to fix. That's one way about it. Right? If you're going to be person focus, that's the thing that I really, you know, I really go back to right, because if you can understand the right people, right, then you can understand different problems for them to solve. if you are so inclined to focus on just the problem itself. You have to keep finding watering holes that are around this problem. And find the watering hole where it's the most obvious, right? I do not recommend this method, because it's very hard. How do you find out all these different modern holes? You go? Like, is my problem really serious? Right? what point do I pull the plug and say, This isn't a good problem to solve? But that's a method of how to do that. Because sometimes, sometimes it is the problem, right? Sometimes you're that's what you're that's what you have, right? Those are the assets you have. That's what you need to go solve. But for most of us, I think the work is finding out essentially sitting back and looking at what what are the pain points, what is really what is really pushing this population to act? Or what is annoying this population or what makes them happy? All these things, right will help you grab a context in order to build a business and has a chance of success.

Conor McCarthy  14:32

I'm so interesting. I love that there's so much of that. That is just listening. But it's kind of listening with intent. And do you find it hard? If you're going into one of these watering holes and getting a great phrase, and you have an idea of what you're offering in mind? Is there a tension there between us don't want this kind of fit what you're thinking into their problems, you really do want to try and listen as as truly as you can. Do you feel that tension ever? Or how do you handle that?

Adam Thomas  15:04

I mean, I think business people are people trying to start things are action oriented. So I think that tension always exists. I think one of the ways to make sure that you one dance with that tension, right, like, there's something there learning something, just in putting yourself there. Second, I think what's extremely important is to, to manage, right, like, there's always a rush to want to do something. And this is this is something that startups especially fall into all the time, pushed out, pushed out, pushed up, pushed up out, something to learn something to learn, second, check them to the wall, right? Something, something, something will be there, right? Something, something will hit. When, you know, if, at a certain point, you're just wasting resources, the best way to instead of putting out, you know, just kind of like seeing what sticks. That's what their attention putting out something small, make a hypothesis. Go back to science class, right? Go go pull out, you know, the scientific method. And try to build out a hypothesis around the information that you know, and try to make it as small as possible. And mostly the most impactful, or the biggest problem that you can find. And try and experiment. Right? Try it, just try something small. One thing I love about this part of the business is when something catches when something is really, really important, it's really impactful, you will know, it's almost it's like the seduction is to go Oh, okay, you know, they just don't understand what's going on here. Or Oh, there's something like, Oh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm so wise and they're not. But I know when Singh has a customer. Whenever somebody really solves a problem that I want solves, nothing like I don't hesitate. Right, I am more than happy to pay for it or ask more questions, or give me my email, I'm more than happy to find some motion to move towards that product and understand more. That's, if you're building hypotheses, you should be failing. At a decent, it should be some failure, right? Like, you're learning more. And and through that failure, you learn. But once you hit something, once you find something that's successful, it's it's rocket ship, right? Or like, it's, it's going to be way different than what you're currently experiencing. Mm hmm.

Conor McCarthy  17:59

I love that. Yeah. And and there's almost, I found in the past, when it's happened to me, or what I've seen it and others, there's almost default trigger sentences and phrases people use, or even bodily reactions, when something lands when it's like, oh, it fits their worldview. It's so it's solving a big problem. And they're surprised that exists, and is having that thing of like, Oh, that's surely that exists already. That's one of those statements I've heard. And it's like, and if you know, it hasn't, then maybe you're onto something good. As Did you ever, did you ever have any formal sales or marketing training?

Adam Thomas  18:38

No, I was thinking about your point. Like, it's such an important one. I want to I want to hang on it for a bit. But like I think about Chris Voss right, as a writer, don't split the differences, his book, when he talks about that. So for folks that don't know, he's a former FBI negotiator. Right. And he was always he was the number one negotiator. I don't know how they he, I don't know how they qualify that. Exactly. But apparently, he's the number one he was the number one guy. One thing he realises and now he works in the business world. And one thing he realises both in those, you know, trying to talk someone down from a building, right for and and in the, in the, in the conference room, the thing that he notices is people say a phrase, like, back to what you were saying, right? They say That's right, you find that alignment, like when you're starting to speak their language. And that's, I thought you just brought up a really important point because I think that ties right into that right people can't help but like when something really really speaks to you. Like you're writing in print out some sort of reaction, right? Like you go Oh, oh, or like yeah, you know, like like a for the design. Audio platform, but like, you know, you have your hands up your fingers go up, clap your hands you you do something right, then you say That's right. Eureka, right, you found the thing? Yes, that's going to solve your problem. So yeah, you're more than happy to get in and, you know, whatever the next step is, it's easy to take that next step, whether that's an email, whether that's a credit card information, whatever. Yeah. to that question, no, I see the question you just asked about my sales experience and marketing experience, nothing formal. Pretty much learned everything, pretty much, you know, doing the work, actually, yeah, and jumping into worlds like, you know, and taking things like often reading people like Seth and Chris Voss and, and others really trying to take the lessons that are in those books, or in these programmes, and just applying them no different than, you know, trying to build a business, right, they're gonna be things for us, they're gonna be things that work, they're gonna be things that don't, the important thing, the most important thing is to, you know, execute on it and see what works. Far too often people are, you know, whether it's formal training or informal training, it's very easy to take this stuff in and not try it or fail once and then just kind of walk away and say, this doesn't work. where, you know, the truth is to be an effective business person, entrepreneur, I think it really takes a level of execution and iteration. And, you know, along with taking in these sources of information, and then applying them.

Conor McCarthy  21:48

I love that that is, like 100%. Agree, I think there's, there's so much gold out there and books and courses, and we've experienced workshops, etc. And, but it's really applying it after the fact. Because you can be totally lit up with with an insight to do with, in this case, let's say sales, or marketing or customer interactions, but then, and the next day, just not like forget about it, or kind of it's filed away somewhere. So yeah, putting it into practice, super important. And this was you've probably done more of that. Because you are self taught you've everything you've everything you do you learn to yourself. And to there has been no kind of framework, I guess, you pick up your own and you put them into action, and then you get rid of the ones you don't need.

Adam Thomas  22:34

Yeah, it's a it's very easy when you're building something, and you know, it pays the bills to just, you know, use it. If it doesn't work, move on. Yeah, because I, I think a writer that we both appreciate, it's Michael bungay stainer, right. And I was taking, and for those who don't know, he's, he's written a book called the coaching habit, I got a chance to sit in a workshop that he that he facilitated. And one of the things he says, immediately at the beginning of the workshop, right, there's something that I've kept sets, and I don't, I don't leave home without it. And the thing is, what he said is, there's always more good ideas, right? We often get caught up in this idea that we don't have, like, there's going to be like, we have this one idea. That's one thing or this one thought, and we need to make it work, hey. Butif we hold on to things too long, if we hold on to something good, we stop ourselves from getting to something great. And, and as an added bonus, you can find yourself walking right into burnout or walking into a bad business. For the you know, it's it's important to recognise that, yes, we will always have a lot of good ideas, you always have good ideas. But the difference between somebody that is, you know, doing okay. And doing somebody that's doing something impactful is somebody that has the ability to look at that say, this is a good idea. I'm willing to walk away, willing to not do this. And search and seek and taking that great idea. And being confident in that, knowing that there's another idea coming around the corner, hey, let's tie this to something that says nobody ever has a problem coming up with bad ideas. And is interesting is to come up with enough bad ideas, good ideas to start the flow. Right. And, you know, in giving up good ideas, a great idea. Well, you know, it's it's really just doing that work and being able to say no, or move on when it's time.

Conor McCarthy  25:00

I love that that's amazing. It's almost bringing bringing a kind of an ego side into it and understanding that it's like, the healthy thing to do is to have that perspective. Maybe this isn't the big one. But is this getting in the way of the big one? That's Yeah, I love that. That's fascinating. And what are there any books or videos or resources that you found particularly helpful to do with the customer conversation part of the journey or getting the first first number of customers in?

Adam Thomas  25:33

That's funny, I'm looking at my bookshelf right now. And I'm trying to think, order some impactful reads, we've mentioned, pretty much anything that Seth writes is going to be good. I think the first primer is this is marketing. Right? I think that's, that's the best primer agenda, just jump in and get a bunch of lessons there. Don't split the difference is great. from Chris Voss, as we already mentioned, is here. This is fun, like, I like I have a lot coming to mind. So never eat alone is important from Keith Farrazi, I think that's a classic one, to, to grab on to and to keep relationships moving.

Conor McCarthy  26:21

Mm hmm.

Adam Thomas  26:22

And I think I'll add Annie Duke to this - Thinking in Bets. Right, when we were talking about ego, I think it's important that entrepreneurs get away from the binary, I get away from deterministic thinking. You're not able to really understand the idea. If you're gonna, if you're just saying this is going to be great or worst thing ever, the best thing to do is to get into probabilistic thinking. And thinking in bets does a fantastic job of laying out how to do that through the guise of poker, but it definitely applies back to business.

Conor McCarthy  27:01

Hmm, I love that. And I was gonna, I was gonna try and narrow down, because I could see you looking at your bookshelf, which I'm sure is brilliant. And say like, you know, what's, what's a favourite, non business or kind of non technical book of yours, that maybe has influenced you the most in terms of understanding things like listening, and things like luck, things like understanding other people.

Adam Thomas  27:27

Oh, that's great. I am looking directly at a testament of hope, which is a collection of writings and speeches from Martin Luther King. And I find a lot of strength in picking that up and really understand being not just, you know, Martin Luther King, right? This is this amazing, human right figure. But also his growth and change. Who He was in 1955 isn't who he was when he was unfortunately assassinated in 1968. There's a, there's a growth there, there's a listening there that happens. And it comes out in his writing and his thinking, not just the speeches, but you know, the op, eds, the editorials, and it's a very clear line of a person that is constantly growing up that as well.

Conor McCarthy  28:33

Okay, that's a great example. Thanks for that. And just one final question, what would you say to someone who is starting out facing into finding their first 10 customers?

Adam Thomas  28:52

If you do this, right, the next time will be very easy.

Conor McCarthy  28:57

That's great. If you do this, right, but I still I like that a lot. That's great. That's a great place to actually wrap up. That's, that's brilliant. Thank you so much. There's I made so many notes, and tonnes of wisdom there. And you really walk a walk when it comes to, to this stuff. And I appreciate your time, and your expertise. So thank you very much. And yeah, and as you want to say anything you want to plug or tell people where to find you.

Adam Thomas  29:28

Sure. Before I do that, thank you, Conor for giving me this space. I really appreciate this. Where can you find me theadamthomas.com, that is where the website is. You can see some writing. You can see me talking you can see. And depending on when this comes out, there'll be more stuff going I'm in the middle of your building. So there'll be more good stuff there for you to want. And also always find me on Twitter at the honourable it Which both I'll give to make sure that you know you can find them in. Yeah, say hello, and Adam at the Adam Thomas calm, always a big fan of email it. It always works because it works. So yeah, feel free to email me and chat about all this stuff. I'm here to talk. 

Conor McCarthy  30:22

Yeah, cool. I'd like to hear it out. I can highly recommend your YouTube channel and I yeah, I love I love all the videos up there. They're really they're so well made and they're just great little nuggets of wisdom. Yeah, really well presented.

Adam Thomas  30:38

Thank you. Thank you. We can add, we can add a link to the YouTube channel in the show notes, or it's coming. Super excited the New Year. We'll have some more videos. So I'm super excited for that.

Conor McCarthy  30:50

Cool. Well, listen, thank you very, very much. And yeah, see you see you online.

Adam Thomas  30:56

Alright, see you online.

Conor McCarthy  30:59

And that's a wrap. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, and that there was something in there that was actionable and insightful for your business. Do check out the show notes for more information on what we discussed, as well as ways to contact my guest today. Helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast, please do get in touch at www.first10podcast.com, or on Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.