#16 - Craig Hewitt of Castos
#16 - Craig Hewitt on being a non-technical founder, communication and customer feedback.
On this episode of The First 10 Podcast, I talk to Craig Hewitt, founder of Castos (a podcast hosting and analytics service) and host of the Rogue Startups Podcast.
Key Points
Your business is your customers. Your business is not your product.
Convincing a customer that their current solution could be better is easier than trying to take them all the way through a brand new concept
Don’t be afraid to sell to people. If you have conviction in your heart that what you have is valuable to a specific person, go talk to that specific person.
Show Notes
Contact Details
Transcription
SPEAKERS Conor McCarthy, Craig Hewitt
Craig Hewitt 00:03
You will be happier. And you'll find more success being really, really, really specific to target the exact type of customer. You want that as a need that your thing solves. And I think a lot of us, myself included, even you know, now after some years try to be something for everybody, and it's just not right. And like we all have to fight against that, I think.
Conor McCarthy 00:24
Hello, Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the first 10 podcast where I interviewed Business Builders on their first 10 customers who they were had defend them, have they talked to them, and what effect they had on their business so that you can review what worked what didn't. My guest today is Craig Hewitt, founder of castoffs, which is a podcast hosting analytic service, and host of the rogue startups podcast. In this episode, Craig shares with us the origins of castoffs and his specific learnings in a few key areas. For instance, we talked about the usefulness of feedback in refining your product, and how to collect that feedback. He shares some great insights into an easier way to attract customers when your product is already up and running. And we spend a little bit of time talking about what it's like to be a non technical founder. And to make sure that your communication channels with your developers and your other team members are clear and open. So which of this episode highlights the importance of good communication at every level of your business? I hope you enjoy this conversation with Craig Hewitt. Hey there first 10 podcast listeners. I'm here today with Craig Hewitt. Greg, first of all, thank you very much for taking the time to be with us here today. And you want to tell us a little bit about your business story so far, what you're working on right now?
Craig Hewitt 01:36
Yeah, yeah. So I'm Craig Hewitt. I'm the founder of Christos, we're a podcast hosting and analytics platform. Yeah, we've been doing casters for about three and a half years. And before that I was the founder of podcast motor, which we've since kind of merged into the customs platform. And that was a product or service that did podcast editing and production. And yeah, Connor, thanks for having me on the show. I'm excited to dive into this stuff.
Conor McCarthy 01:58
Yeah, cool. And as I said, before picking you up. It's always strange onto another podcast host. But you are you really in the business of helping people bring their podcasts out to the world? Do you want to talk about cast offs? Maybe to go back to those first 10 customers and tell us a little bit about what it was like in the early days when you first set up?
Craig Hewitt 02:16
Yeah, so so I think that like to tell that story goes back a little a little further even than that. So I mentioned I was the founder of podcast motor, which is like a productized service that did podcast editing and one of our clients. They're bred to nard. I think some folks like especially in the WordPress space, no bread from delicious brains. They're pretty big WordPress product shop. And Brad was one of our customers and sent me an email out of the blue one day, Hey, I know this guy who is going to work at automatic right, the parent company of WordPress, and he has this podcasting WordPress plugin called seriously simple podcasting. That is like a free plugin. And in the repo everybody can use he's not monetizing at all, but going to work at automatic, he wants to kind of divest himself of this product, so that he can kind of focus on doing his job. And I had always wanted to get into SAS, and like products instead of services. And so, yeah, so we purchased the plugin from Hugh lashbrook, who was the creator of the plugin, and then kind of built the hosting platform on top of that. So we we have had and continue to have like a freemium type model through our plugin, where people can use the plugin for free if they want to manage kind of their podcast content and the RSS feed on the WordPress site. But we allow them to to plug the Casitas hosting platform into that to store their files and distribute them from an external platform. And that is how we got our first 10 customers and how we got a lot of our first you know, year and a half worth of customers was was through this WordPress integration.
Conor McCarthy 03:51
Okay, wow, that you're I mean, you're tapping into a gigantic ecosystem there. I mean, WordPress is is sprawling at power such a large amount of the web at this stage. Do you remember any of the, I suppose the the kind of standout situations early on with particular customers who maybe were, you know, they stood out for some reason, either good or bad?
Craig Hewitt 04:11
Yeah, I mean, I think that just generally like launching a product and getting those first customers and is also I've already done once, I guess, but but it's always harder and worse than you think, you know, like there's going to be more bugs, it's going to be harder to onboard people. We, we didn't do like a beta period or a you know, like really advanced alpha testing or anything like that, like I I was and still am maybe too much like a let's just ship this thing and see what happens. Not being a developer like I don't feel the pain of that like directly like our developers do. But But definitely like in the early days, we shipped really fast and Fortunately, like didn't break too much stuff, but but I think like that, that would be like, the overarching thing is like, if I had it to do over again, I probably would do like a beta period, maybe invite only get some people that are very friendly and they're to test things out and to give us feedback. And let us launch something that's more polished. But But I don't think it's wrong. You know, I think that like I'm, I'm kind of shaded by the experience we had where we'd launched really quickly and really aggressively. And because of that, you know, we had some, some rough edges. But doing so allowed us, I mean, we had, I don't know, 30 paying customers on our first day, maybe, um, so. So like, we launched, and we got to like 10 k MRR in like, 10 months. So, like, I think that there's something to be said, for launching quickly and iterating. And just knowing that, like, the first year is going to be a dumpster fire in terms of what you what you and your development team and your support team are doing to kind of support the product and and kind of work it and work around it to meet your customers needs. But But I think the alternative that is like sitting in your basement for a year coding and building the wrong thing, and not addressing your customers needs, because the only way to really, really know what your customers needs is for them to tell you and use your product. And, you know, to some extent, like not be satisfied with it. So, you know, I wish it was better. But I don't know that I would change that, I guess.
Conor McCarthy 06:23
Hmm, that's really interesting. You're Yeah, there is there's a, there is one way of doing it, which is to sit in your basement and build, build, build, and then to release. And maybe to figure out that this, this idea doesn't have a home in the world because it doesn't address a real need. What does customer feedback look like? When it comes through about your business?
Craig Hewitt 06:44
Yeah, so it comes from a couple of different channels. One is, we have a feedback board. So folks go to feedback casters calm, we use a tool called feature upvote to manage like a feature request board there and people can upload it like Product Hunt, or Reddit. So that is that is really helpful, we drive a lot of people there to post their suggestions so that other members of the community can, can, you know, interact and give their two cents about kind of how important and urgent something goes, we get obviously support inquiries from wordpress.org. And from our, you know, help Scout, you know, from over email and chat. And, you know, we log all those and kind of, you know, try to filter through and sift and say like, Okay, this is like urgent and important, right, that those things are not urgent and not important. I'm trying to put all those in and kind of their respective bucket and prioritise them for, you know, kind of whatever it needs to be like design and product and development to to address those and kind of have, you know, bugs or imperfections in the UI that that don't come up again, so people can be more successful and not have to log a support request.
Conor McCarthy 07:57
Yeah, I've often wondered about what it looks like, once you're up and running. And yeah, things come through people whose needs you're serving, come back and say, you know, it's great, but it'd be better if it had this or or there's something you know, there's a there's a big serious chunk of it that's missing. And I suppose it's a matter of then constantly iterating on the product, and feeding that back to the customers again, and on and on we go. Is that correct? Yeah.
Craig Hewitt 08:18
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, obviously, listening to the customers is really important, right? That they like your businesses, your customers, your business, not your product, your product serves your customers. So I think that's super important. I also think at the same time, just being reactionary, to what your customers are telling you can can lead you and your business in a place that you don't want it to go, you know. So like the Henry Ford thing is, like, if he asked people what they want, it would be a faster horse. And so I think that you as the product owner, or the founder need to have a vision of where you want things to go. And so we we kind of loosely allocate this, say like, okay, 75% of our developer time is going towards building new features, and 25% of is going to fixing bugs and refactoring and improving what's already there. So it's something like that, you know, of course, it changes. You know, as the weeks and months go by, but but we tried to have some kind of balance with that to say, like, me, as the founder and kind of the product person still say, this is what I want to build. And we need this for the business to continue to grow. Because, you know, without the business, our customers wouldn't have a solution. And we wouldn't have jobs and stuff like that. So keeping the business in business is like job number one, and like making customers happy, is definitely a huge part of that. But also kind of expanding the scope of the project and how it serves customers is is really important. And a part of that is, you know, squashing bugs and improving the functionality and the UX. But But part of that is just building entirely new features.
Conor McCarthy 09:55
So it's always interesting to look, as you said earlier, like the startup story, are often a dumpster fire, like just making things happen day after day and, and cleaning up messes, etc. But looking back, there's probably a through line of how everything worked out for you. That's, that looks clean, if that makes sense, like going into it. It's like, Oh my god, what's happening? But looking back, it's like, oh, yeah, this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. If you were to have to go back and from scratch, find a new set of 10 customers? What, what one or two things? Would you double down on? What's been really effective?
Craig Hewitt 10:33
Yeah, it's a really interesting question. Um, so I think that like, when we look at our success metrics of our customers, one of the biggest things is for us specifically, and I think that this can apply across multiple, multiple kind of applications or types of businesses is like, for us, people that import a podcast from another provider, stay longer than new podcasters. So I think, you know, translate that into whatever your thing is, if you you know, build a help Doc, or help desk software or a knowledge based software, or, you know, a JIRA competitor or whatever, like getting people from JIRA, or from notion or from helpscout, into your product, will, there'll be better customers, because they already have a need for this thing. And it's just them convinced being convinced that your tool is better than than the tool they were coming from. So I think that like, stealing customers from another application is, is hard in some ways, because they like they already have you in a bucket, right? You are just like helpscout are just like JIRA, but different for a reason. And so you have to make that really clear, but then you have to deliver on that from a product perspective and an experience perspective. So I think that for talking about like your first 10 customers, convincing somebody that they need a wiki tool, and their business is is kind of hard, right? But convincing them that the one they have isn't meeting their needs, and that yours would, it is probably easier just because you have to convince them of so many fewer things. You know, there's this thing of like a customer buying journey. And like the last decision they have to make is like, you know, they're problem aware, and they're solution aware, and they're like brand aware. And that that's that last step to say like, okay, it's either JIRA, or it's my thing. And customer makes a decision there. Um, so while that decision might be difficult, it's only one decision that the customer has to make. So like, that's a long way of saying, When looking at getting your first 10 customers, I think not having to take them all the way through like this brand new concept of like, you know, Uber, right is a good example of like ride sharing an app and not taking a taxi and people are scared of putting their credit card in their phone, and all this kind of stuff is like a long journey to take the customer. But to be able to say, Now, you know, it's Uber or Lyft is like an easier thing for, for marketers to, to kind of guide customers on.
Conor McCarthy 12:55
Yeah, that's I think that's really important to be to be able to, even if you feel that your your new business idea has never been done before. And it definitely has to be able to talk to the customer, as well as in a way to join the conversation that's already happening in the customers head to kind of sidle up to them, and start talking alongside them and then to join in with them. And then to I suppose introduce how your product or service might be better for them. That's that seems like an easier way that does make sense actually, instead of starting from scratch and trying to go into education and spin up and and there's a hell of a lot more convincing the other way around.
Craig Hewitt 13:37
Yeah, and I think in our world, you know, in this kind of bootstrapper, Freelancer kind of world we saw this with Brennan and Shai from write message. And if you kind of follow those guys and what they've done, like they started off with this really, really super interesting concept of like website personalization, right? So based on what you know, about a website visitor, from their interactions, and email interactions in the past, you can customise the website to show exactly what they want. Like that is really great, right, but like people had a really hard time wrapping their head around that. And so now they've, they've kind of pivoted that say like, we are a personalised opt in tool so it's like OptinMonster it's like Sumo but with all in but it's smart, you know? And so people yeah, like put that in a bucket So okay, they're like OptinMonster they're like Sumo there right? Like whatever else but but just better for for my website, my needs. And I think they've seen a lot of success since they pivoted to that and kind of learn that story the hard way.
Conor McCarthy 14:37
Yeah, yeah. Leverage leverage what's out there already? Every little bit helps. And did you have much sales or marketing experience before you started cast us or podcast motor?
Craig Hewitt 14:48
Yeah, so I have sales experience my previous life. I was in sales. And I'm definitely not a developer. So yeah, I have to have to wear the sales marketing hat.
Conor McCarthy 14:58
Did you did you have to get to grips with any developer terminology or mindset along the way said?
Craig Hewitt 15:06
Yeah, I mean, I've talked about it on my podcast, quite a bit, kind of going back, you know, several years now, I guess. But yeah, I think for non technical founders to learn how to communicate with and work with developers is, is a big challenge. And not taking anything away, or like assigning blame to to our developers, because they're wonderful. And they've been very patient with me. But like, what I've what I've kind of settled on is the way I think and talk is not the same that a developer thinks and talks about that part of their life, right, we can go have a beer or whatever. And that's cool. And then we're on the same page there. But like, when I say, I want to go build a thing, I have all of this stuff in my mind. And when I say let's go build this page, I have stuff in my mind, and they have things in their mind, and it's not the same. And so I think learning how to communicate what's in your head, into a format that they can understand and refer to and build from, is, is really, really, really important for the happiness and the productivity of your developers, and for you as like a non technical founder, because what's going to happen if you don't do a good job of that is they're gonna build something. And then you're gonna look at it and say, This is wrong, like, How could you think this is what I wanted when I said, I want this page, and they're gonna say, well, you said you wanted a page, and you're gonna say, well go build it like this. And so they'll spend twice as long doing something and be frustrated and kind of dejected and demoralised. And so we've done a, a lot, a lot, a lot of work about how we kind of run our product process. And we follow the shape up, kind of formula pretty, pretty closely. But I'll tell you, the thing that made the biggest difference is about a year ago, started working with a designer who is amazing. So he does like both design and like front end development for us now. And it has a really good eye for UX. And so now our process, instead of me being the one to like, take what's in my head and put it on paper in a way that our developers can can do it is I have a call with Francois to say, okay, Francois, I want to build this page, and I want it to look like this. And I want it to do this. And when a customer does that this happens. And then he just puts it in figma. And we play around with it in figma for a week, and then it's locked down and the customers go, or the developers go build it, just like it looks in figma. So I think it's been really helpful for us to have that intermediate step. I mean, it takes it adds a little bit of time, but definitely select some financial resources to have another person involved. But we try to he and I tried to work on a feature, you know, several weeks ahead of when the developers would be ready to work on it. So that, you know, we're working in parallel, but but kind of a step ahead. And so we're done, and the developers are ready to start working on this new feature. It's, everything is ready for them.
Conor McCarthy 17:55
It's the goal, at least, is Yeah, I mean, that that's that whole communication between non technical founder and developer is fascinating. Because it's, there is an analogy as well, to talking with customers, you know, as you said, A moment ago, I want, you know, on this page built, go do it. And then they come back with something totally different say, Oh, no, wait, that there was there was a miscommunication somewhere along the way. And I think that's, that's maybe the role of things like customer conversations where you can actually get closer to the, to the desired end point or the output that a customer might want. So I think that it's it's kind of an empathy piece, it's it's being able to properly communicate those wants and needs from the get go.
Craig Hewitt 18:42
Yep, yep.
Conor McCarthy 18:44
If you had any sales tips to give to people looking for their first 10 customers, what would they be?
Craig Hewitt 18:49
Yeah, I think, especially for people that don't have sales backgrounds, or especially come from like, a technical background is like, don't be afraid to sell to people. Um, if you have an if you have, like, conviction in your heart, that what you have is valuable. And I think that's where a lot of people, myself included, have a hard time selling something that we don't really believe in, is like, I have this thing and there's so many rough edges and blah, blah, and like people aren't gonna want this thing. Like if that is actually true. Don't go sell it, you know, go build a better thing before you go try to sell it. But if you have a product or a service, that you believe is really great for some very specific person, go talk to that specific person. And then I think that it's very, very, very okay to kind of admit to yourself and the people you're talking to that like if you are not turns out you're not exactly this type of person that you think this product or service is great for, to say, Hey, we built this for, you know, interior designers who want a project management tool that they can work remotely with for customers that are in buildings that are 20,000 square feet or more, you know, If you're not that person, cool, like no hard feelings, I'm glad we had a chat. But let's you know, let's call it a day, I think that like, you will be happier. And you'll find more success being really, really, really specific to target the exact type of customer, you want that as a need that your thing solves. And the more specific you can get with that, the higher your close rate will be, the happier you'll be happier customers will be the tighter your marketing copy will be. Because your ability to talk to you like a specific person, um, and I think a lot of us, myself included, even you know, now after, after some years try to be something for everybody. And it's just not, it's just not right. And like, we all have to fight against that, I think,
Conor McCarthy 20:44
yeah, completely, I found this a real struggle for myself when I was trying to define what kind of a coach I wanted to be. And, you know, there was a scarcity mindset of like, I don't exclude anyone because I could, I can coach anyone, you know, and but the, the, the tighter I got my, I suppose my value proposition you might say, the easier it became for all the reasons you said, even down to when I was writing copy, it was so much easier just to be like, it's exactly this for this.
Craig Hewitt 21:14
And it's not limiting, like I think people say, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, alienates so much of my base, or I'm gonna not attract the right kind of person, like, I think you would have to be very, very, very, very, very niche to to not be able to create a business around a specific audience.
Conor McCarthy 21:32
Yes, yes, totally agree. And, and, you know, even like, I know, Seth Godin talks a lot about the fact that most people don't know his work. I mean, I know it, and maybe you know, it, and lots of people I know are well versed in his work, but he said, like, most people don't know it. And that's fine. It's a tiny number of people, but it's more than enough to sustain a business or a few businesses. So yeah, that's like that. What would you say to someone who is starting out to find their first 10 customers?
Craig Hewitt 21:58
Yeah, I think the easiest thing is to talk to people in your kind of existing circles and talk to people that you know, from, you know, your industry, your, your existing customers from another business or, you know, friends or something like that, ask for ask for referrals from those people to take, like one step out of that initial group. Um, but But yeah, start with people that you know, and are friendly, especially those first one or two customers to say, like, Hey, this is what I'm doing, or what I'm thinking about, what do you think, like, is this interesting is as valuable, but but, you know, sending cold email as your first way to try to sell a new customer, when you haven't gotten that that value proposition and really nailed that, I think, is really hard. So I think that if you don't have people, you know, already, that could be your customers.
Conor McCarthy 23:33
Um, that that's just a harder road to go. So is, is, as you're able to kind of craft what you're going to do to be somewhere in the circles that you already run, I think that that it would be quite a bit easier. And if you don't, then then just getting to know people in those in those worlds. So in those slack groups, and those Facebook groups, just get in there and communicate be valuable, be helpful to folks there understand exactly what they need, hear the language that they're using, about the pains and the solutions that they see in their world. And, and then just kind of use that that same language back to them. On the subject of language, I think this is really undersung skill where you're listening, and and copying down, the real words that people use is really, really valuable. Do any, do any statements bring to mind that, that were real customer statements that that helped you, I suppose, develop your products.
Craig Hewitt 23:44
I can't say that I think like our homepage, you know, is a copy is like directly influenced by customers. But I think that that's because like, I am a representative customer as a podcaster. And I've been in the business for, you know, a pretty long time. And so I feel like in the spectrum of like how well I know, our ideal customer like, I feel like I'm pretty far along in that spectrum. So I'm kind of able to write copy and, and everything from putting myself in the customer shoes. So that's, I think what we've done so far to a pretty big extent.
Conor McCarthy 24:19
Yeah, that's, that's the sweet spot. I suppose you you're scratching your own itch, so you understand exactly what it's like. I remember when I some of the statements that I noticed, that stood out for me that kept getting repeated were when it came to people starting new businesses was like spinning my wheels. I heard this, this phrase, I know it like I'm just spinning my wheels on things, you know, and it's like, I kept coming back. And I started to work that into conversations more and more. And it was it resonated, and I just found it helpful to have a set of statements like that. I guess that really helped me figure out what their What did it feel like to be the customer in that scenario?
Craig Hewitt 24:56
Yeah, yeah. You know, something that that we do to come have checked, you know, myself and our like marketing folks against what we think we know is we send a survey to to our customers just after they become a paying customer, we send them a survey, it's like the the product market fit, if you will a survey that the superhuman folks popularised Internet's like four questions. And one of them is like, what word would you describe? Cast us with? And who do you think it's best for? Um, so those are two of the questions since we asked this. And we just put into the type form and type forms cool because then it like, lets you export days, and we put these into a word cloud. And every so often, like, we don't do it every week, but maybe a couple times a year, but but just go and see like, what that word cloud looks like, and what words people use most often. And, and it's been interesting to see, you know, what our customers think of us and how they would describe us to other people and who were best for. And we definitely do use that. Unlike our marketing copy, like our ads and things like that. And that's been, that's been just a nice system to say, okay, the survey goes to everybody right? After they get to become a paying customer. we analyse this every so often. And then if we need to tweak our like, real ad, you know, kind of marketing copy.
Conor McCarthy 26:19
Yeah. Yeah, down to the individual words, you can glean a lot of insight information from that. Yep. Any books or videos or articles that you recommend people read if they're, if they're starting out? It trying to try to sell their idea?
Craig Hewitt 26:39
I think set from a selling perspective, SPIN Selling is is like a really popular one. It's, yeah, I mean, it kind of goes way back. For me, but but that was one of the really good ones. Um, there's a book I just read recently, it's called the Great CEO within and like, it may be something for folks that that kind of have, you know, a few team members or something like that. But it's like, the most concise. It's like a bunch of little blog posts that that somebody put into a book of like, they distil down, you know, getting things done, and they distil down the traction book by Gina Whitman, distil down all these other really great books, right, yeah, into one just like compendium of how you should run a company. And so even if like, you're you're just starting out, and it's just you, I think it's helpful to think about, like how you should think about running your business, even if you don't have other team members. But that that's been a really good book. Yeah, and the other one, that that I would kind of put in a similar, similar place that really kind of blew my mind was, who, not how, and I forget the guy who wrote it, but but the premise there is basically, to really leverage your kind of contribution to the business, you need to find people who are better at you to do basically everything. And that you are than the enabler of these people that are super specialists, and experts in their field, like, like our designer, right has really transformed how we do product. And so finding him, you know, in retrospect, was really great, because he lets us build better products faster. And so it just like is a mindset shift of like, I think us as entrepreneurs, and freelancers, and like makers get bogged down in, like, I have to do this thing, and I have to be responsible, and it's only on my shoulders. And I'm so important, right, and like, the reality is like that's a self limiting belief. And, well, you definitely need to do it at the beginning to kind of bootstrap it and get it off the ground. Like at some point, the purpose of the company becomes to hire those best people so that the company can flourish as much as possible. And you just be the person that enables those people to do their best job. So I think even if it's, you know, folks are just kind of starting on getting those first 10 customers, these books are helpful in kind of forming the mindset that will allow you to continue to grow more easily, because like, definitely something I found is like, growth doesn't get easier. And like stress doesn't get less as you get a bigger business. It's just different. And so I think getting some of these things ingrained in your mind, at the beginning is helpful.
Conor McCarthy 29:21
That's a really good reminder, I think because there's probably a misrepresentation out there that you just need to get past the early difficult to use and then it's, you know, get above the clouds, and then you're just gonna kind of sail through it, you're shaking your head, as they say, did you want to talk about that just for a second? Like, what, what changes between the, you know, the frothy first year and you're just as we said earlier, putting out fires and figuring everything else through two years, three, five, etc.
Craig Hewitt 29:50
I think that that one of the like, the place we are at least is is Yeah, we're past that base of it. You know, it's me and a developer and we're just putting out fires and trying to keep to ship afloat to like, with a team or nine people now, and my job is, is really to kind of help and support everybody. And like that comes with a lot of weight, because then it's like their livelihood and their happiness, that that is kind of a main concern of mine. And, and like that just has a very different kind of stress, then there's 25, customer support tickets and helpscout. And I have to go answer those. But like, Okay, how can I, you know, build a system that lets us, you know, bring customer feedback from the support team into the product cycle like that, that needs to happen. So everyone is happy and our team is happier, customers are happy, and I'm happy. But But those are not easier things to solve. But that's just kind of an example of some things that change.
Conor McCarthy 30:47
Thanks for that. Any other thoughts? Just before we wrap up?
Craig Hewitt 30:50
No, I think we chatted a lot about a lot of really cool stuff. And I appreciate you having me on.
Conor McCarthy 30:55
Yeah, thank you very, very much for your time and for sharing all your expertise. I'll include all the details in the show notes. People can contact you, etc. Yes, thank you very, very much for your time.
Craig Hewitt 31:05
My pleasure. Thanks, Connor.
Conor McCarthy 43:22
That's a wrap. I hope you enjoyed this episode and that there was something in there that was actionable and insightful for your business. Do check out the show notes for more information on what we discussed, as well as ways to contact my guest. And it would really make by year if you could help me grow the podcast by leaving a rating or even a review. Helping you identify and create those first 10 customers is what I do. So if you like what you hear on this podcast and want more information, including a bunch of free resources on how to find your first customers and grow your business, do check out www.first10podcast.com, or find me on Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.